Re: New to the group

Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Date	2015-09-27 23:33 -0700
References	(5 earlier) <0248672f-0b32-4e13-93e1-7ee763d527e1@googlegroups.com> <57e7fba4-bc34-4462-baec-881e3418a75d@googlegroups.com> <add2ace4-8c0e-4512-8afe-bd1b5b213af3@googlegroups.com> <b51972e2-e90e-47d2-8842-9fd8328848b8@googlegroups.com> <zqWdnf-RqcdGVJXLnZ2dnUU7-eudnZ2d@supernews.com>
Message-ID	<72edac95-ab55-46af-a67a-e7c85fb1ca9b@googlegroups.com> (permalink)
Subject	Re: New to the group
From	hughaguilar96@gmail.com

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On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 10:02:21 PM UTC-7, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote:
> On 9/27/15 5:53 PM, Chris Curl wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 10:37:26 PM UTC-4, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> ANS-Forth was like that meteor that killed off the dinosaurs, except that instead of a big rock, it was a gigantic turd that landed on our heads --- now we have Forth-200x that is mandated to be 100% compatible with ANS-Forth --- more of the same!
> > Great insight. Here we had a truly unique thing that could morph into anything, and change the trajectory of programming. And they killed it because they wanted to control it. What a shame.
> >
> > Suffice to say that my implementation will be what I want it to be, not what some committee decrees.
> >
> 
> The reports of Forth's death are wildly exaggerated, especially by Hugh.
> 
> Cheers,
> Elizabeth

Well, Testra has spent the last 20 years selling motion-control boards based on the RACE processor. AFAIK however, MFX has never been used outside of Testra and the only program that was ever written in it was the motion-control program.

Nobody wants to touch Forth because ANS-Forth is the Standard (with a capital 'S') and ANS-Forth is really no good for anything.

Actually, the ANS-Forth document could be good as the lyrics in a song. Consider section 3.2.3.2:

"The control-flow stack may, but need not, physically exist in an implementation. If it does exist, it may be, but need not be, implemented using the data stack. The format of the control-flow stack is implementation defined. Since the control-flow stack may be implemented using the data stack, items placed on the data stack are unavailable to a program after items are placed on the control-flow stack and remain unavailable until the control-flow stack items are removed."

If you put words like this to music, you might have something salable! Do you play the banjo? 

ANS-Forth was just a marketing gimmick intended to convince the world that Forth Inc. sets the standard for the entire Forth community. ANS-Forth was pushed through to ANSI in 1994 without ever being tested. It couldn't be tested in 1994, because there was no ANS-Forth compiler available until 1997. This was SwiftForth, and it was too bug-ridden to be usable. Up through version-2, SwiftForth would crash every time that (LOCAL) was used --- this bug didn't get fixed until version-3 --- but Elizabeth Rather refuses to provide version-3 to the poor fools (me, for example) who paid over $400 for version-2. For Elizabeth Rather, it is all about the money, and scamming customers is just something that she does every day.

In the 1980s Forth was a big pond. There were a lot of Forth programmers, and Forth was considered to be more promising than C as the language of personal-computers. In those days, C was associated entirely with Unix($$$), but there were already several versions of Forth available for every personal-computer. Elizabeth Rather couldn't accept being a small fish in a big pond though --- she wanted Forth Inc. to be a big fish in a small pond --- all that she cared about was pushing ANS-Forth through ANSI so that Forth Inc. would appear to be the leader of the Forth community, but when she was done there was no Forth community remaining.

She has spent the last 20 years presenting herself as the "leading expert" on Forth. On the Forth Inc. website she describes herself like this:

"Elizabeth Rather is the co-founder of FORTH, Inc. and is a leading expert in the Forth programming language. Elizabeth was a colleague of Chuck Moore back when he worked at NRAO in the early 1970s. During his development of Forth, she became the second ever Forth programmer. Since then, she has become a leading expert in the language and one of its main proponents. Elizabeth was the chair of the ANSI Technical Committee that produced the ANSI Standard for Forth (1994).  She is an author of several books on Forth and gives regular training seminars on its usage."

Recently she said this:

On Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 7:30:10 PM UTC-7, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote:
> Here's [an array definer] presented in my Forth Application Techniques that I think is
> far more useful than the FSL version:
>
> : ARRAY ( n -- )   CREATE DUP , CELLS ALLOT
>     DOES> ( n -- a)   SWAP OVER @ OVER < OVER
>        1 < OR ABORT" Out of Range" CELLS + ;

Well, Chris, if you have at least one week of experience programming in Forth, you should be able to point out most of the problems with Elizabeth Rather's code. The point that I'm making, is that Elizabeth Rather is not a Forth programmer --- she has never written a Forth program in her life --- she knows as much about technology as any salesperson does, which is nothing.

You should be able to easily write a better array definer than Elizabeth Rather is capable of writing. But it is a waste of time anyway! As a newbie, you should be focusing your mind on writing application programs. Writing low-level code such as an array definer is boring --- if you are going to succeed as a Forth programmer, you have to succeed at writing application programs (even getting a simple program to work is a huge confidence builder for a newbie) --- too many newbies get bogged down with implementing data-structures and they quit Forth before having ever written even one simple application program.

Thread

New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-26 15:17 -0700
  Re: New to the group mentificium@gmail.com - 2015-09-26 17:35 -0700
  Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-26 21:16 -0700
    Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-27 07:27 -0700
      Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-27 14:43 -0400
        Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-27 13:05 -0700
        Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-09-27 12:57 -1000
        Re: New to the group Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-09-27 17:00 -0700
          Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-27 17:16 -0700
            Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-27 20:31 -0400
            Re: New to the group jfong@ms4.hinet.net - 2015-09-27 18:57 -0700
              Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-27 19:37 -0700
                Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-27 20:53 -0700
                Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-09-27 19:02 -1000
                Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-27 23:33 -0700
                Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-28 04:51 -0700
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-28 12:39 -0400
                Re: New to the group Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2015-09-28 14:29 +0200
                Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-28 07:18 -0700
                Re: New to the group foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2015-09-28 08:07 -0700
                Re: New to the group Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2015-09-28 17:23 +0200
                Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-28 11:16 -0700
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-28 14:25 -0400
                Re: New to the group anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-09-29 09:05 +0000
                Re: New to the group Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2015-09-28 20:31 +0200
                Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-28 13:20 -0700
                Re: New to the group Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2015-09-28 22:52 +0200
                Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-28 16:40 -0700
                Re: New to the group Alfred Singlestone <vitonis@gmail.com> - 2015-09-28 08:41 -0700
                Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-09-28 11:41 -1000
                Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-28 21:33 -0700
                Re: New to the group jfong@ms4.hinet.net - 2015-09-28 19:13 -0700
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 00:51 -0400
                Re: New to the group jfong@ms4.hinet.net - 2015-09-29 18:26 -0700
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 21:55 -0400
                Re: New to the group Jan Coombs <Jan-54 <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com>> - 2015-09-30 08:29 +0100
                Re: New to the group jfong@ms4.hinet.net - 2015-09-29 18:52 -0700
                Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-29 00:29 -0700
                Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 04:40 -0700
                Re: New to the group Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 05:24 -0700
                Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 07:33 -0700
                Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-29 14:11 -0700
                Re: New to the group "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-29 16:46 +0000
                Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-29 14:15 -0700
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 17:34 -0400
                Re: New to the group "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-30 00:07 +0000
    Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-27 10:54 -0700
  Re: New to the group Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-09-26 22:37 -0700
    Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-27 10:51 -0700
  Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 17:15 -0700
    Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 21:58 -0400
      Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 22:03 -0700
        Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-09-29 21:32 -1000
          Re: New to the group Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-09-30 09:06 +0100
            Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-09-30 08:58 -1000
              Re: New to the group Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-09-30 23:55 -0700
                Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-09-30 21:28 -1000
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-01 08:25 -0400
                Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-01 09:33 -0700
            Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-30 16:21 -0700
              Re: New to the group "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-09-30 21:03 -0400
                Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-09-30 19:34 -1000
                Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-30 23:47 -0700
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-01 08:31 -0400
                Re: New to the group "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-10-02 00:30 -0400
                Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-01 19:22 -1000
                Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-01 23:52 -0700
                Re: New to the group Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 01:52 -0700
                Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-02 08:36 -1000
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 17:00 -0400
                Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 14:46 -0700
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 18:10 -0400
                Re: New to the group Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-02 16:08 -0700
                Re: New to the group "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-10-02 20:44 -0400
                Re: New to the group David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2015-10-31 06:54 -0400
                Re: New to the group "Rod Pemberton" <too@zxcvfeqad.cdm> - 2015-11-02 02:34 -0500
                Re: New to the group David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2015-12-22 06:45 -0500
                Re: New to the group "Rod Pemberton" <too@zxcvfeqad.cdm> - 2015-11-02 02:34 -0500
                Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-02 15:16 -1000
                Re: New to the group Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-02 18:21 -0700
                Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-02 15:38 -1000
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 22:13 -0400
                Re: New to the group Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-10-03 22:24 +0100
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 17:33 -0400
          Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-30 17:00 -0700
            Re: New to the group "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-09-30 20:38 -0400
            Re: New to the group Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2015-10-02 14:37 -0400
              Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 17:01 -0400
              Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-02 23:35 -0700
        Re: New to the group "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-09-30 18:11 -0400
          Re: New to the group Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2015-10-01 02:13 +0200
    Re: New to the group Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-09-30 08:38 +0100
      Re: New to the group Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2015-09-30 10:58 -0400
  Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-01 06:04 -0700
    Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-01 09:46 -0400
    Re: New to the group anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-08 06:07 +0000
      Re: New to the group Alfred Singlestone <vitonis@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 04:04 -0700
        Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 10:29 -0400
        Re: New to the group anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-09 15:30 +0000
  Re: New to the group lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 00:19 -0700
    Re: New to the group visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-10-03 17:01 -0700
    Re: New to the group anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-08 06:38 +0000
      Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-07 21:15 -1000
        Minimal wordset (was: New to the group) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-08 13:39 +0000
          Re: Minimal wordset (was: New to the group) JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-08 08:13 -0700
            Re: Minimal wordset (was: New to the group) Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 00:55 -0700
              Re: Minimal wordset Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-10-09 10:43 +0200
                Re: Minimal wordset Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 06:56 -0700
                Re: Minimal wordset Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-10-09 19:44 +0200
                Re: Minimal wordset Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-09 14:02 -0700
                Re: Minimal wordset Jan Coombs <Jan-54 <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com>> - 2015-10-10 09:44 +0100
                Re: Minimal wordset anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-10 11:36 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 08:40 -0700
                Re: Minimal wordset Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-10-09 19:53 +0200
                Re: Minimal wordset lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 11:22 -0700
                Re: Minimal wordset JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-09 11:33 -0700
                Re: Minimal wordset Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-10-09 20:38 +0200
                Re: Minimal wordset stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-10-09 20:56 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-01 20:10 -0500
                Re: Minimal wordset Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2015-11-02 03:05 +0100
                Re: Minimal wordset "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-01 16:08 -1000
                Re: Minimal wordset stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-11-02 09:35 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-02 12:42 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 23:22 -0800
                Re: Minimal wordset rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-03 11:25 -0500
                Re: Minimal wordset stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-11-03 19:36 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2015-11-08 12:56 +1100
                Re: Minimal wordset stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-11-08 16:14 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2015-11-09 11:55 +1100
                Re: Minimal wordset anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-02 09:41 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-03 11:29 -0500
                Re: Minimal wordset anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-03 17:01 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-09 11:27 -0700
            Re: Minimal wordset (was: New to the group) "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-10-09 23:11 -0400
              Re: Minimal wordset (was: New to the group) Jan Coombs <Jan-54 <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com>> - 2015-10-10 08:38 +0100
      Re: New to the group dunno <dunno@dunno.dunno> - 2015-10-14 23:14 +0000
        Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-14 16:21 -1000
        Re: New to the group anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-15 08:46 +0000
  Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 09:23 -0700
    Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-03 09:19 -1000
  Re: New to the group lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-08 05:24 -0700
    Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-08 08:22 -1000
      Re: New to the group lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 08:37 -0700
  Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-31 10:44 -0700

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