Re: Null pointer constant

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From	Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Null pointer constant
Date	Tue, 20 Jun 2017 15:35:58 -0700
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Nick Bowler <nbowler@draconx.ca> writes:
> On Tue, 20 Jun 2017 12:39:42 -0700, Keith Thompson wrote:
>> Nick Bowler <nbowler@draconx.ca> writes:
>>> On Tue, 20 Jun 2017 11:55:20 -0700, Keith Thompson wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>> But if we look at the definition of "expression" (6.5p1):
>>>> 
>>>>     An *expression* is a sequence of operators and operands that
>>>>     specifies computation of a value, or that designates an object
>>>>     or a function, or that generates side effects, or that performs
>>>>     a combination thereof.
>>>> 
>>>> and take it literally, then 0 isn't even an expression; it has
>>>> no operators, and therefore no operands.
>>>
>>> So there are actually two definitions of the term expression in the
>>> standard, the other is in 6.5.17 (where it appears on the left side
>>> of a syntax rule).  By the syntax rule, 0 is as an expression.
>>>
>>> The italics in 6.5p1 are probably a mistake.
>> 
>> I'm sure the italics are deliberate.  It's clearly intended to be
>> the definition of the term "expression".  The problem is that it's
>> inconsistent with the implicit definition in the grammar.
>
> It's not really "implicit" -- definitions from syntax rules have
> the same status as the other ways that terms can be defined per 3p1.

Good point.

> I don't know the intent of the authors but one of the two definitions
> for expression is obviously wrong.  It's hard to say that was the
> intended definition.

It's strictly incorrect whether it's a definition or not.  I'm
reasonably certain the use of italics was deliberate, that it was
intended to be the definition of "expression", and that it was intended
to be consistent with the syntactic definition.  It fell down on the
last point, but it would be the same error even if it were not a
definition but merely a general statement about expressions.

[snip]

>> And there are aspects that are not directly reflected in the grammar.
>> For example, `(T)0` is an expression if and only if T is a type name,
>> and the determination of whether T is a type name or not is not fully
>> specified by the grammar.
>
> This doesn't affect the meaning of the terms, though.  The syntax rules
> do not stand in isolation, all of the text of the standard must be
> considered.

One could have a language whose syntax definition is internally
consistent and exhaustive.  C is not such a language, largely
because of typedef names.

> Specifically, the definition of "typedef name" in 6.7.8p1 (from the left
> hand side of a syntax rule) cannot be considered independent of 6.7.8p3
> which explains /which/ identifiers count as typedef names.

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org  <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
Working, but not speaking, for JetHead Development, Inc.
"We must do something.  This is something.  Therefore, we must do this."
    -- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"

Thread

Null pointer constant bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-06-18 17:15 +0100
  Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-18 11:20 -0700
  Re: Null pointer constant Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-06-18 19:23 +0100
    Re: Null pointer constant bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-06-18 20:57 +0100
      Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-18 13:38 -0700
        Re: Null pointer constant Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-06-19 04:35 -0700
          Re: Null pointer constant Nick Bowler <nbowler@draconx.ca> - 2017-06-19 18:08 +0000
            Re: Null pointer constant Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-06-19 21:05 -0700
          Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-19 12:12 -0700
            Re: Null pointer constant Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-06-19 21:08 -0700
      Re: Null pointer constant Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-06-19 00:34 +0100
        Re: Null pointer constant Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-06-19 04:45 -0700
          Re: Null pointer constant David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-19 13:55 +0200
        Re: Null pointer constant bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-06-19 13:16 +0100
          Re: Null pointer constant Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-06-19 16:58 +0100
  Re: Null pointer constant Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2017-06-18 20:58 +0000
    Re: Null pointer constant bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-06-19 00:11 +0100
      Re: Null pointer constant David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-19 03:21 +0200
        Re: Null pointer constant bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-06-19 10:11 +0100
          Re: Null pointer constant David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-19 12:38 +0200
            Re: Null pointer constant bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-06-19 13:05 +0100
              Re: Null pointer constant David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-19 14:39 +0200
                Re: Null pointer constant "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-06-19 11:06 -0400
                Re: Null pointer constant Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2017-06-19 15:51 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-06-19 12:22 -0400
                Re: Null pointer constant Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2017-06-19 17:29 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-06-19 13:45 -0400
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-19 12:31 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2017-06-19 15:10 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-06-19 16:53 +0100
                Re: Null pointer constant "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-06-19 13:06 -0400
                Re: Null pointer constant Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-06-19 20:03 +0100
                Re: Null pointer constant David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-19 22:37 +0200
                Re: Null pointer constant Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-06-19 22:10 +0100
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-19 14:25 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-06-19 22:46 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-20 08:43 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-06-20 09:17 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-06-21 00:56 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-21 10:07 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-06-21 23:52 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-22 10:12 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-06-22 17:33 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-06-23 08:54 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Manfred <invalid@invalid.add> - 2017-06-20 00:00 +0200
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-19 15:27 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-06-19 16:38 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-06-20 01:14 +0100
                Re: Null pointer constant Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-06-20 12:03 +0100
                Re: Null pointer constant Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2017-06-20 13:16 +0200
                Re: Null pointer constant jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2017-06-20 05:34 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-20 08:49 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2017-06-20 16:35 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-06-20 13:07 -0400
                Re: Null pointer constant Nick Bowler <nbowler@draconx.ca> - 2017-06-20 17:29 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-06-20 13:55 -0400
                Re: Null pointer constant Nick Bowler <nbowler@draconx.ca> - 2017-06-20 18:06 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-06-20 14:42 -0400
                Re: Null pointer constant Nick Bowler <nbowler@draconx.ca> - 2017-06-20 19:10 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2017-06-20 18:31 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant Nick Bowler <nbowler@draconx.ca> - 2017-06-20 18:36 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-06-20 14:45 -0400
                Re: Null pointer constant Nick Bowler <nbowler@draconx.ca> - 2017-06-20 17:14 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-20 11:55 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Nick Bowler <nbowler@draconx.ca> - 2017-06-20 19:23 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-06-20 15:39 -0400
                Re: Null pointer constant scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-06-21 13:44 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-06-21 13:49 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-06-21 23:57 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2017-06-28 20:04 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-07-10 08:38 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-20 12:39 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-06-20 20:53 +0100
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-20 13:07 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Nick Bowler <nbowler@draconx.ca> - 2017-06-20 20:50 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-20 15:35 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-06-21 00:26 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-21 09:54 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-06-21 13:09 -0400
                Re: Null pointer constant Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-06-22 00:53 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-06-21 18:09 +0100
                Re: Null pointer constant Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-06-22 00:50 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-19 10:24 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-06-19 22:32 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-06-19 19:40 +0100
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-19 12:08 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-06-19 20:32 +0100
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-19 12:48 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2017-06-19 13:08 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Nick Bowler <nbowler@draconx.ca> - 2017-06-19 20:40 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-06-19 22:01 +0100
                Re: Null pointer constant supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-06-19 14:15 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2017-06-19 14:25 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2017-06-19 21:06 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-19 14:28 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2017-06-19 21:35 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-06-19 14:48 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2017-06-20 15:38 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-19 15:16 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-06-19 14:29 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-19 15:18 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-06-19 22:48 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-06-20 15:09 +0100
              Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-19 10:19 -0700
            Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-19 10:15 -0700
              Re: Null pointer constant David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-19 22:44 +0200
            Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-19 12:24 -0700
      Re: Null pointer constant Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2017-06-19 08:21 +0000
        Re: Null pointer constant bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-06-19 10:17 +0100
          Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-19 10:04 -0700
  Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-19 12:34 -0700

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