Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #156149 > unrolled thread

upgrading to telco DSL--charges?

Back to article view | Back to alt.folklore.computers

Contents

  upgrading to telco DSL--charges? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-06 12:46 -0800
    Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-06 19:24 -0500
    Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-06 19:18 -0600
      Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2016-01-07 19:52 -0600
        Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-08 10:22 -0800
          Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? The New Other Guy <Newsgnus@gmail.com> - 2016-01-08 10:49 -0800
          Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-08 23:46 -0600
            Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? "879" <879@nospam.com> - 2016-01-09 18:11 +1100
              Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-09 11:56 -0600
                Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? "879" <879@nospam.com> - 2016-01-10 06:17 +1100
                Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-09 19:21 +0100
                  Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-09 11:59 -0800
                    Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? Lon <lon.stowell@comcast.net> - 2016-01-10 14:29 -0700
                  Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? "879" <879@nospam.com> - 2016-01-10 08:07 +1100
                    Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-10 12:08 +0100
                      Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? "879" <879@nospam.com> - 2016-01-11 04:16 +1100
                Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-09 14:41 -0500
                Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-09 11:57 -0800
                  Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? "879" <879@nospam.com> - 2016-01-10 08:11 +1100
              Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? Lon <lon.stowell@comcast.net> - 2016-01-10 14:31 -0700
    Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? The New Other Guy <Newsgnus@gmail.com> - 2016-01-06 17:52 -0800
    Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? "Jack Myers" <jmyers@n6wuz.net> - 2016-01-08 10:15 -0800
      Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-08 22:12 +0100
        Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2016-01-08 17:11 -0600
      Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-08 18:06 -0500

Page 1 of 2  [1] 2  Next page →

#156149 — upgrading to telco DSL--charges?

At home, I wish to upgrade to DSL.  The phone company says I have
to buy a router.  Didn't they use to offer them for free?

Any suggestions of what to ask and look for in getting DSL would
be appreciated.

(FIOS is not available.  Comcast cable service sucks in my
area.)

Thanks!

[public replies, please]

[toc] | [next] | [standalone]

#156168

In article <3aa3c84e-2b64-4035-b4a8-0bcd6c167dae@googlegroups.com>, 
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com says...
> 
> At home, I wish to upgrade to DSL.  The phone company says I have
> to buy a router.  Didn't they use to offer them for free?
> 
> Any suggestions of what to ask and look for in getting DSL would
> be appreciated.
> 
> (FIOS is not available.  Comcast cable service sucks in my
> area.)
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> [public replies, please]

I think it's been a long time since the DSL modem was free.  I had to 
pay for my last one.  But quite frankly, Comcast would have to be 
incredibly bad to be worse than DSL.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156172

On 1/6/2016 2:46 PM, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> At home, I wish to upgrade to DSL.  The phone company says I have
> to buy a router.  Didn't they use to offer them for free?

Yes. They don't anymore.

You can almost certainly buy the router from somebody else (newegg, 
ebay, etc) but make sure it is compatible with the service the phone 
company provides.

> Any suggestions of what to ask and look for in getting DSL would
> be appreciated.

DSL speeds degrade with distance from the hardware you connect to 
(often a DSLAM in a curbside cabinet). They degrade due to various 
problems with your phone line (some of which may not be perceptible 
for voice use). Like cable, they degrade when the company 
oversubscribes and too many people are using your segment at the same 
time (typically evening). Don't believe any claims on speed unless you 
can find someone nearby who can verify them.

www.dslreports.com is a pretty good source for info and reviews of 
broadband vendors in general (not just DSL) and specific (e.g. a 
particular vendor in your city).
>
> (FIOS is not available.  Comcast cable service sucks in my
> area.)

The telco service will probably suck, too. And your connection will be 
slower.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156233

Dave Garland wrote:


> www.dslreports.com is a pretty good source for info and reviews of
> broadband vendors in general (not just DSL) and specific (e.g. a
> particular vendor in your city).
>>
DSLreports is an EXCELLENT resource, I check it regularly to see what is 
going on.

>> (FIOS is not available.  Comcast cable service sucks in my
>> area.)
> 
> The telco service will probably suck, too. And your connection will be
> slower.

We can't have DSL here anymore, the lines have gotten too bad.  I used it 
MANY years ago, and it worked quite well.

But, now, we are hooked on 60 mbit/sec download and 4 mbit/sec upload speed.
(Wish we could get a little more upload speed, but maybe soon.)

DSL is REALLY sensitive to the condition of the lines.  If your phones buzz 
and crackle when it rains, DSL will not work great then, either.

Jon

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156265

On Thursday, January 7, 2016 at 8:52:36 PM UTC-5, Jon Elson wrote:

> DSL is REALLY sensitive to the condition of the lines.  If your phones buzz 
> and crackle when it rains, DSL will not work great then, either.

I had a problem with that, but they put me in a new pair.

I think I'll be ok as I'm close to the central office.  On dial-up,
I get 52.

When there are power outages, even week-long ones, my landline phone
always keeps working.

I go into it with low expectations.  Some much for the "modern world".
As mentioned, Vz sucks, but Comcast sucks even more.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156271

On Fri, 8 Jan 2016 10:22:08 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

>On Thursday, January 7, 2016 at 8:52:36 PM UTC-5, Jon Elson wrote:
>
>> DSL is REALLY sensitive to the condition of the lines.  If your phones buzz 
>> and crackle when it rains, DSL will not work great then, either.
>
>I had a problem with that, but they put me in a new pair.
>
>I think I'll be ok as I'm close to the central office.  On dial-up,
>I get 52.

The DSLAM is NOT always, or even often, at the CO.

>When there are power outages, even week-long ones, my landline phone
>always keeps working.

Yes, that's the way it was designed.  Internet, NOT like that. OR DSL.

>I go into it with low expectations.  Some much for the "modern world".
>As mentioned, Vz sucks, but Comcast sucks even more.

As much as Comcast sucks, AT&T is worse.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156304

On 1/8/2016 12:22 PM, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Thursday, January 7, 2016 at 8:52:36 PM UTC-5, Jon Elson wrote:
>
>> DSL is REALLY sensitive to the condition of the lines.  If your phones buzz
>> and crackle when it rains, DSL will not work great then, either.
>
> I had a problem with that, but they put me in a new pair.
>
> I think I'll be ok as I'm close to the central office.  On dial-up,
> I get 52.
>
> When there are power outages, even week-long ones, my landline phone
> always keeps working.

Indeed. Don't count on your DSL doing likewise.Mine dies 
instantaneously along with the neighborhood lights. And the power 
issue isn't something that can be dealt with by your battery backups 
(I've got those). But those long outages aren't very common, so 
(depending on your personal requirements) maybe shouldn't be a big 
issue. Though my friend in Atlanta says everybody's got backup 
generators, because the outages there are so frequent, so YMMV.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156305

"Dave Garland" <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote in message 
news:n6q6ol$u3v$1@dont-email.me...
> On 1/8/2016 12:22 PM, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, January 7, 2016 at 8:52:36 PM UTC-5, Jon Elson wrote:
>>
>>> DSL is REALLY sensitive to the condition of the lines.  If your phones 
>>> buzz
>>> and crackle when it rains, DSL will not work great then, either.
>>
>> I had a problem with that, but they put me in a new pair.
>>
>> I think I'll be ok as I'm close to the central office.  On dial-up,
>> I get 52.
>>
>> When there are power outages, even week-long ones, my landline phone
>> always keeps working.
>
> Indeed. Don't count on your DSL doing likewise.Mine dies instantaneously 
> along with the neighborhood lights. And the power issue isn't something 
> that can be dealt with by your battery backups (I've got those). But those 
> long outages aren't very common, so (depending on your personal 
> requirements) maybe shouldn't be a big issue.

> Though my friend in Atlanta says everybody's got backup generators, 
> because the outages there are so frequent, so YMMV.

Weird that a first world country would put up with such an obscene result.

We don’t normally get one a year and they rarely last that long. 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156319

On 1/9/2016 1:11 AM, 879 wrote:
>
>
> "Dave Garland" <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote in message
> news:n6q6ol$u3v$1@dont-email.me...

>> Though my friend in Atlanta says everybody's got backup generators,
>> because the outages there are so frequent, so YMMV.
>
> Weird that a first world country would put up with such an obscene
> result.
>
> We don’t normally get one a year and they rarely last that long.

The 'burbs are hilly and parts are thickly wooded, and the 
infrastructure is old. Mostly it's wind blowing branches (or trees) 
down that takes out lines, but there's a lot of trees, some of them 
old and decrepit. And kudzu. I don't expect they get outages downtown.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156322

"Dave Garland" <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote in message 
news:n6rhgm$g4f$1@dont-email.me...
> On 1/9/2016 1:11 AM, 879 wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Dave Garland" <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote in message
>> news:n6q6ol$u3v$1@dont-email.me...
>
>>> Though my friend in Atlanta says everybody's got backup generators,
>>> because the outages there are so frequent, so YMMV.
>>
>> Weird that a first world country would put up with such an obscene
>> result.
>>
>> We don’t normally get one a year and they rarely last that long.
>
> The 'burbs are hilly and parts are thickly wooded, and the infrastructure 
> is old. Mostly it's wind blowing branches (or trees) down that takes out 
> lines, but there's a lot of trees, some of them old and decrepit.

Plenty of ours are just like that and they still don’t see more
than one a year.

> And kudzu. I don't expect they get outages downtown.
 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156323

In article <n6rhgm$g4f$1@dont-email.me>,
Dave Garland  <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote:
>On 1/9/2016 1:11 AM, 879 wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Dave Garland" <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote in message
>> news:n6q6ol$u3v$1@dont-email.me...
>
>>> Though my friend in Atlanta says everybody's got backup generators,
>>> because the outages there are so frequent, so YMMV.
>>
>> Weird that a first world country would put up with such an obscene
>> result.
>>
>> We don’t normally get one a year and they rarely last that long.
>
>The 'burbs are hilly and parts are thickly wooded, and the 
>infrastructure is old. Mostly it's wind blowing branches (or trees) 
>down that takes out lines, but there's a lot of trees, some of them 
>old and decrepit. And kudzu. I don't expect they get outages downtown.

This city vs suburbia vs countryside reliability comparison is
pretty much everywhere. Downtown has had three 1-2 hour power cuts
since Nixon resigned. But out here in outer suburbia we have them 
every month or so, with a longer one (up to 8 hours) every year or
so. 

I have wired the house with a 12V battery backed computer and essentials
power supply, have a wood fireplace and a small, 1kW petrol generator.
As well as a partial gas stove. The batteries are good for around a
day, somewhat more if I shut down stuff, somewhat less if I drive lots
of lights from it.

The upside is that the actual grid is pretty well thought out, they
just haven't got the funds to have automated switching everywhere for
the local supply, so they will have to send someone out to reroute 
stuff if there are shorts on some local 21kV lines that blow out
fuses. This happens when we have storms in the winter. But it is
normally fixed withon a few hours.

Whereas downtown they haven't had a single > 2seconds power cut
for nearly 15 years. The last one was when a core tranformer blew up
due to lack of oil cooling in 2001. The 2 seconds are for the automated
relays to throw the load to a different supply.

This seems to be the story almost everywhere.

-- mrr

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156329

On Saturday, January 9, 2016 at 2:31:31 PM UTC-5, Morten Reistad wrote:

> The upside is that the actual grid is pretty well thought out, they
> just haven't got the funds to have automated switching everywhere for
> the local supply, so they will have to send someone out to reroute 
> stuff if there are shorts on some local 21kV lines that blow out
> fuses. This happens when we have storms in the winter. But it is
> normally fixed withon a few hours.

Our grid is ancient.  Last year they added manual cut off switches,
so I suppose in the event of an outage they could sectionalize
it to minimize impacted homes.

Those of us in apartments can't have generators or stoves and
are screwed.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156355

On 1/9/2016 12:59, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Saturday, January 9, 2016 at 2:31:31 PM UTC-5, Morten Reistad wrote:
>
>> The upside is that the actual grid is pretty well thought out, they
>> just haven't got the funds to have automated switching everywhere for
>> the local supply, so they will have to send someone out to reroute
>> stuff if there are shorts on some local 21kV lines that blow out
>> fuses. This happens when we have storms in the winter. But it is
>> normally fixed withon a few hours.
>
> Our grid is ancient.  Last year they added manual cut off switches,
> so I suppose in the event of an outage they could sectionalize
> it to minimize impacted homes.
>
> Those of us in apartments can't have generators or stoves and
> are screwed.
>

I feel your pain.  More accurately I felt your pain for years despite 
living a block from Apple hqs.

Comcast bought up all the cable in that area, but ours was strung by a 
bunch of "geniuses" from Western Cabled, then sold to ATT, then Comcast.

ATT was useless.  Comcast at least tried to keep decent DOC service on 
the horridly installed cable plant--but service pretty much always 
sucked.   DSL wasn't too bad.

Try the Cisco/Linksys stuff--that's what a lot of telcos provide.
Speed won't be blistering, but mine was actually pretty reliable.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156330

"Morten Reistad" <first@last.name.invalid> wrote in message 
news:glv7mc-ee2.ln1@sambook.reistad.name...
> In article <n6rhgm$g4f$1@dont-email.me>,
> Dave Garland  <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote:
>>On 1/9/2016 1:11 AM, 879 wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "Dave Garland" <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:n6q6ol$u3v$1@dont-email.me...
>>
>>>> Though my friend in Atlanta says everybody's got backup generators,
>>>> because the outages there are so frequent, so YMMV.
>>>
>>> Weird that a first world country would put up with such an obscene
>>> result.
>>>
>>> We don’t normally get one a year and they rarely last that long.
>>
>>The 'burbs are hilly and parts are thickly wooded, and the
>>infrastructure is old. Mostly it's wind blowing branches (or trees)
>>down that takes out lines, but there's a lot of trees, some of them
>>old and decrepit. And kudzu. I don't expect they get outages downtown.
>
> This city vs suburbia vs countryside reliability comparison is
> pretty much everywhere. Downtown has had three 1-2 hour power cuts
> since Nixon resigned. But out here in outer suburbia we have them
> every month or so,

We don’t see anything like that in outer suburbia here.

> with a longer one (up to 8 hours) every year or so.

Its very rare to get them for anything like that long here.

> I have wired the house with a 12V battery backed computer and essentials
> power supply, have a wood fireplace and a small, 1kW petrol generator.

I did get a petrol generator from a garage/yard sale for just $20
but have never actually gotten around to even checking if it works.

> As well as a partial gas stove.

I do have the camping gas stove but have only ever used it
the once due to a mains failure in the 50 years I have had it.

> The batteries are good for around a
> day, somewhat more if I shut down stuff, somewhat less if I drive lots
> of lights from it.
>
> The upside is that the actual grid is pretty well thought out, they
> just haven't got the funds to have automated switching everywhere for
> the local supply, so they will have to send someone out to reroute
> stuff if there are shorts on some local 21kV lines that blow out fuses.

We have automatic reclosers on ours. The only time there needs
to be any manual action is when one of the transformers is taken
out, usually due to a lightning strike, or when one of the big poles
which have the 11KV lines at the top of them is blown down like
did happen not that long ago when a mini tornado when thru the
town and took out a massive number of trees that took more than
a month to get all the downed trees removed. No houses were lost.

> This happens when we have storms in the winter.
> But it is normally fixed withon a few hours.

> Whereas downtown they haven't had a single > 2seconds power cut
> for nearly 15 years.

New Zealand has has a couple, massive
cable failure. We havent had any of those.

Quite a bit of Brisbane was turned off for a while in the relatively
recent massive floods, but that was deliberate turning off, not failure.

> The last one was when a core tranformer blew up
> due to lack of oil cooling in 2001. The 2 seconds are for
> the automated relays to throw the load to a different supply.

> This seems to be the story almost everywhere.

No its not on your monthly failures in suburbia. 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156349

In article <dfdb4eFipssU1@mid.individual.net>, 879 <879@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>
>"Morten Reistad" <first@last.name.invalid> wrote in message 
>news:glv7mc-ee2.ln1@sambook.reistad.name...
>> In article <n6rhgm$g4f$1@dont-email.me>,
>> Dave Garland  <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote:
>>>On 1/9/2016 1:11 AM, 879 wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Dave Garland" <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:n6q6ol$u3v$1@dont-email.me...
>>>
>>>>> Though my friend in Atlanta says everybody's got backup generators,
>>>>> because the outages there are so frequent, so YMMV.
>>>>
>>>> Weird that a first world country would put up with such an obscene
>>>> result.
>>>>
>>>> We don’t normally get one a year and they rarely last that long.
>>>
>>>The 'burbs are hilly and parts are thickly wooded, and the
>>>infrastructure is old. Mostly it's wind blowing branches (or trees)
>>>down that takes out lines, but there's a lot of trees, some of them
>>>old and decrepit. And kudzu. I don't expect they get outages downtown.
>>
>> This city vs suburbia vs countryside reliability comparison is
>> pretty much everywhere. Downtown has had three 1-2 hour power cuts
>> since Nixon resigned. But out here in outer suburbia we have them
>> every month or so,
>
>We don’t see anything like that in outer suburbia here.
>
>> with a longer one (up to 8 hours) every year or so.
>
>Its very rare to get them for anything like that long here.
>
>> I have wired the house with a 12V battery backed computer and essentials
>> power supply, have a wood fireplace and a small, 1kW petrol generator.
>
>I did get a petrol generator from a garage/yard sale for just $20
>but have never actually gotten around to even checking if it works.
>
>> As well as a partial gas stove.
>
>I do have the camping gas stove but have only ever used it
>the once due to a mains failure in the 50 years I have had it.
>
>> The batteries are good for around a
>> day, somewhat more if I shut down stuff, somewhat less if I drive lots
>> of lights from it.
>>
>> The upside is that the actual grid is pretty well thought out, they
>> just haven't got the funds to have automated switching everywhere for
>> the local supply, so they will have to send someone out to reroute
>> stuff if there are shorts on some local 21kV lines that blow out fuses.
>
>We have automatic reclosers on ours. The only time there needs
>to be any manual action is when one of the transformers is taken
>out, usually due to a lightning strike, or when one of the big poles
>which have the 11KV lines at the top of them is blown down like
>did happen not that long ago when a mini tornado when thru the
>town and took out a massive number of trees that took more than
>a month to get all the downed trees removed. No houses were lost.

We have got reclosers too, but they stay open if there are permanent
shorts or strong faults to earth. If this happens they need to re-patch
by isolating the shorted line; and this requires sending people out.
They can get to even the most remote stations within around 90 minutes, 
and this is pretty much the max duration of local faults. Population
centers (i.e. more than 20 houses) are located at the eyes of the
figure-8s and have at least two primary and one disaster path out.

They thought out the grid pretty well, it is 4 "figure-8" on top
of each other with supplies from two small hydropower stations and
the national grid in 3 places. The hydro stations can run it alone
in summer, but in winter we need at least one of the external
supplies. Pure outages (without permanent shorts) usually last
2-6 seconds, enough to have a computer reboot and one of the
fridges to forget its settings, but no worse than that. This is
done on 21 kV. Some of the lines, poles, platforms and transformer shacks
date from the 1930s, but everything was renewed and upgraded from
4kV to 21kV around 1990. Before that outages could last days.

There is a SPOF in the pole routing of the 50kV external feeds, 
which will be solved by having a 21kV sea cable installed next
summer to the next municipality, which will give both of them
emergency feeds even through winter. 

They are converting neighbourhoods slowly from 235TT to 400TN-S, 
to save copper and/or have longer local supply stretches. 
>
>> This happens when we have storms in the winter.
>> But it is normally fixed withon a few hours.
>
>> Whereas downtown they haven't had a single > 2seconds power cut
>> for nearly 15 years.
>
>New Zealand has has a couple, massive
>cable failure. We havent had any of those.
>
>Quite a bit of Brisbane was turned off for a while in the relatively
>recent massive floods, but that was deliberate turning off, not failure.
>
>> The last one was when a core tranformer blew up
>> due to lack of oil cooling in 2001. The 2 seconds are for
>> the automated relays to throw the load to a different supply.
>
>> This seems to be the story almost everywhere.
>
>No its not on your monthly failures in suburbia. 

Outer suburbia, almost rural. Well, agricultural in several places with
4 smaller population centers of 2-4000 people each. Located on a 
peninsula quite close to the city, but the land route is around 75 km
from the tip of the peninsula to the city.

The national grid is around 10 km away from the root of the peninsula,
and there are two pole rows feeding two transformer stations, but they
are very close, and are connected to a and b sides of the 420kV grid 
in the same place. 

This does not conform to national standards for redundancy. Therefore
the sea cable install next summer.

-- mrr

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156353

"Morten Reistad" <first@last.name.invalid> wrote in message 
news:tmq9mc-la5.ln1@sambook.reistad.name...
> In article <dfdb4eFipssU1@mid.individual.net>, 879 <879@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>"Morten Reistad" <first@last.name.invalid> wrote in message
>>news:glv7mc-ee2.ln1@sambook.reistad.name...
>>> In article <n6rhgm$g4f$1@dont-email.me>,
>>> Dave Garland  <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote:
>>>>On 1/9/2016 1:11 AM, 879 wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Dave Garland" <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:n6q6ol$u3v$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>
>>>>>> Though my friend in Atlanta says everybody's got backup generators,
>>>>>> because the outages there are so frequent, so YMMV.
>>>>>
>>>>> Weird that a first world country would put up with such an obscene
>>>>> result.
>>>>>
>>>>> We don’t normally get one a year and they rarely last that long.
>>>>
>>>>The 'burbs are hilly and parts are thickly wooded, and the
>>>>infrastructure is old. Mostly it's wind blowing branches (or trees)
>>>>down that takes out lines, but there's a lot of trees, some of them
>>>>old and decrepit. And kudzu. I don't expect they get outages downtown.
>>>
>>> This city vs suburbia vs countryside reliability comparison is
>>> pretty much everywhere. Downtown has had three 1-2 hour power cuts
>>> since Nixon resigned. But out here in outer suburbia we have them
>>> every month or so,
>>
>>We don’t see anything like that in outer suburbia here.
>>
>>> with a longer one (up to 8 hours) every year or so.
>>
>>Its very rare to get them for anything like that long here.
>>
>>> I have wired the house with a 12V battery backed computer and essentials
>>> power supply, have a wood fireplace and a small, 1kW petrol generator.
>>
>>I did get a petrol generator from a garage/yard sale for just $20
>>but have never actually gotten around to even checking if it works.
>>
>>> As well as a partial gas stove.
>>
>>I do have the camping gas stove but have only ever used it
>>the once due to a mains failure in the 50 years I have had it.
>>
>>> The batteries are good for around a
>>> day, somewhat more if I shut down stuff, somewhat less if I drive lots
>>> of lights from it.
>>>
>>> The upside is that the actual grid is pretty well thought out, they
>>> just haven't got the funds to have automated switching everywhere for
>>> the local supply, so they will have to send someone out to reroute
>>> stuff if there are shorts on some local 21kV lines that blow out fuses.
>>
>>We have automatic reclosers on ours. The only time there needs
>>to be any manual action is when one of the transformers is taken
>>out, usually due to a lightning strike, or when one of the big poles
>>which have the 11KV lines at the top of them is blown down like
>>did happen not that long ago when a mini tornado when thru the
>>town and took out a massive number of trees that took more than
>>a month to get all the downed trees removed. No houses were lost.
>
> We have got reclosers too, but they stay open if there are permanent
> shorts or strong faults to earth.

True.

> If this happens they need to re-patch by isolating
> the shorted line; and this requires sending people out.

They just remove the short here and yes, that does need someone
to do that. If its something that can't be fixed quickly, like say one
of the poles has come down because someone has driven into it
or the wind has blown it down, that just sees the affected section
without power until its fixed. But that doesn’t happen very often
for a particular consumer. I've only had one of those in 40 years,
that mini tornado that took out a pole that is 500m from my house.
That happened in the early evening and the power was back by the
time I got up around 6am. Obviously they had worked thru the
night to do that, massive great concrete pole with the 11KV
supply at the top.

> They can get to even the most remote stations within around 90 minutes,
> and this is pretty much the max duration of local faults. Population
> centers (i.e. more than 20 houses) are located at the eyes of the
> figure-8s and have at least two primary and one disaster path out.

> They thought out the grid pretty well, it is 4 "figure-8" on top
> of each other

We don’t have anything like that here with that figure 8 stuff.

Not clear why we get far fewer dropouts per year.

> with supplies from two small hydropower stations and
> the national grid in 3 places.

Ours are all part of the national grid that covers the highest
population density part of the country but which includes
great swathes with almost no one living there.

> The hydro stations can run it alone in summer,

Our hydro system is essentially a pumped water buffer
for the national grid. We don’t get a lot of direct hydro
from it even tho it’s a massive system.

> but in winter we need at least one of the external supplies.
> Pure outages (without permanent shorts) usually last
> 2-6 seconds, enough to have a computer reboot and one of the
> fridges to forget its settings, but no worse than that.

We don’t get very many of those at all, not as many
as the other outages which last for a while but almost
never for more than part of a day apart from the massive
flood situation where they can be turned off for a week
or so until the water has gone away.

> This is done on 21 kV. Some of the lines, poles, platforms and transformer
> shacks date from the 1930s, but everything was renewed and upgraded
> from 4kV to 21kV around 1990. Before that outages could last days.

We have never had much of that apart from the
deliberate turning off due to massive floods.

> There is a SPOF in the pole routing of the 50kV external feeds,
> which will be solved by having a 21kV sea cable installed next
> summer to the next municipality, which will give both of them
> emergency feeds even through winter.

Our system is almost entirely 500KV and 330KV lines that make
up the national grid with mostly 11KV distribution from those.

There is a sea cable to Tasmania and its currently got a problem
but Tasmania can operate without it when that is necessary.

> They are converting neighbourhoods slowly from 235TT to 400TN-S,
> to save copper and/or have longer local supply stretches.

We are mostly undergrounding ours gradually
but aren't changing the system when we do that.

>>> This happens when we have storms in the winter.
>>> But it is normally fixed withon a few hours.
>>
>>> Whereas downtown they haven't had a single > 2seconds power cut
>>> for nearly 15 years.
>>
>>New Zealand has has a couple, massive
>>cable failure. We havent had any of those.
>>
>>Quite a bit of Brisbane was turned off for a while in the relatively
>>recent massive floods, but that was deliberate turning off, not failure.
>>
>>> The last one was when a core tranformer blew up
>>> due to lack of oil cooling in 2001. The 2 seconds are for
>>> the automated relays to throw the load to a different supply.
>>
>>> This seems to be the story almost everywhere.
>>
>>No its not on your monthly failures in suburbia.
>
> Outer suburbia, almost rural. Well, agricultural in several places
> with 4 smaller population centers of 2-4000 people each.

Yeah, ours is very similar population centers wise, yes agricultural.

> Located on a peninsula quite close to the city, but the land
> route is around 75 km from the tip of the peninsula to the city.

> The national grid is around 10 km away from the root of the peninsula,
> and there are two pole rows feeding two transformer stations, but they
> are very close, and are connected to a and b sides of the 420kV grid
> in the same place.

> This does not conform to national standards for redundancy.

We don’t have a lot of redundancy in that sense.

> Therefore the sea cable install next summer.

We only have that with Tasmania which is similar to yours
in some ways but not a peninsular, completely separate
island. It does have a lot more true hydro than the mainland.

So does New Zealand. 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156325

In article <n6rhgm$g4f$1@dont-email.me>, dave.garland@wizinfo.com 
says...
> 
> On 1/9/2016 1:11 AM, 879 wrote:
> >
> >
> > "Dave Garland" <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote in message
> > news:n6q6ol$u3v$1@dont-email.me...
> 
> >> Though my friend in Atlanta says everybody's got backup generators,
> >> because the outages there are so frequent, so YMMV.
> >
> > Weird that a first world country would put up with such an obscene
> > result.
> >
> > We don?t normally get one a year and they rarely last that long.
> 
> The 'burbs are hilly and parts are thickly wooded, and the 
> infrastructure is old. Mostly it's wind blowing branches (or trees) 
> down that takes out lines, but there's a lot of trees, some of them 
> old and decrepit. And kudzu. I don't expect they get outages downtown.

We used to get very short blinks a couple of times a month in rural CT--
a couple years back though an early snow took down all the marginal 
power lines and all the less than perfectly sound limbs that hung over 
them and the power company has been putting singificant effort into 
trimming them back ever since, with the result that there hasn't been 
one of those blinks in a long time.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156328

On Saturday, January 9, 2016 at 12:57:12 PM UTC-5, Dave Garland wrote:

> The 'burbs are hilly and parts are thickly wooded, and the 
> infrastructure is old. Mostly it's wind blowing branches (or trees) 
> down that takes out lines, but there's a lot of trees, some of them 
> old and decrepit. And kudzu. I don't expect they get outages downtown.

Correct.  In the city, the power lines are above streets that often
don't have trees at all.  In the suburbs, the lines run above streets
that have heavy trees, and many are old.

From time to time the power company tries to thin out the branches,
but then people complain.  Since it's costly, they don't bother.
With deregulation, service quality is worse.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156331

<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote in message 
news:12b95da4-ecff-4f16-b577-77be185644c0@googlegroups.com...
> On Saturday, January 9, 2016 at 12:57:12 PM UTC-5, Dave Garland wrote:
>
>> The 'burbs are hilly and parts are thickly wooded, and the
>> infrastructure is old. Mostly it's wind blowing branches (or trees)
>> down that takes out lines, but there's a lot of trees, some of them
>> old and decrepit. And kudzu. I don't expect they get outages downtown.
>
> Correct.  In the city, the power lines are above streets that often
> don't have trees at all.  In the suburbs, the lines run above streets
> that have heavy trees, and many are old.
>
> From time to time the power company tries to thin out the branches,
> but then people complain.  Since it's costly, they don't bother.

That may well be part of the difference. Ours does it regardless
of complaints. And the newer part of town has underground
power in the suburbs.

> With deregulation, service quality is worse.

 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156356

On 1/9/2016 0:11, 879 wrote:
>
>
> "Dave Garland" <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote in message
> news:n6q6ol$u3v$1@dont-email.me...
>> On 1/8/2016 12:22 PM, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>> On Thursday, January 7, 2016 at 8:52:36 PM UTC-5, Jon Elson wrote:
>>>
>>>> DSL is REALLY sensitive to the condition of the lines.  If your
>>>> phones buzz
>>>> and crackle when it rains, DSL will not work great then, either.
>>>
>>> I had a problem with that, but they put me in a new pair.
>>>
>>> I think I'll be ok as I'm close to the central office.  On dial-up,
>>> I get 52.
>>>
>>> When there are power outages, even week-long ones, my landline phone
>>> always keeps working.
>>
>> Indeed. Don't count on your DSL doing likewise.Mine dies
>> instantaneously along with the neighborhood lights. And the power
>> issue isn't something that can be dealt with by your battery backups
>> (I've got those). But those long outages aren't very common, so
>> (depending on your personal requirements) maybe shouldn't be a big issue.
>
>> Though my friend in Atlanta says everybody's got backup generators,
>> because the outages there are so frequent, so YMMV.
>
> Weird that a first world country would put up with such an obscene result.

This particular first world country happens to have arguably the world's 
worst telco and internet infrastructure of any country with the possible 
exception of North Korea.

South Korea is at the other end, even Thailand has better internet than 
we do.
>
> We don’t normally get one a year and they rarely last that long.

Seems to depend on geo.   The local Comcast fails so rarely I always 
have to make sure it isn't my equipment first.  Similar for local telco. 


Then, there was the horseshit service in Cupertino from both.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

Page 1 of 2  [1] 2  Next page →

Back to top | Article view | alt.folklore.computers

csiph-web