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Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges?

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"Morten Reistad" <first@last.name.invalid> wrote in message 
news:tmq9mc-la5.ln1@sambook.reistad.name...
> In article <dfdb4eFipssU1@mid.individual.net>, 879 <879@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>"Morten Reistad" <first@last.name.invalid> wrote in message
>>news:glv7mc-ee2.ln1@sambook.reistad.name...
>>> In article <n6rhgm$g4f$1@dont-email.me>,
>>> Dave Garland  <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote:
>>>>On 1/9/2016 1:11 AM, 879 wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Dave Garland" <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:n6q6ol$u3v$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>
>>>>>> Though my friend in Atlanta says everybody's got backup generators,
>>>>>> because the outages there are so frequent, so YMMV.
>>>>>
>>>>> Weird that a first world country would put up with such an obscene
>>>>> result.
>>>>>
>>>>> We don’t normally get one a year and they rarely last that long.
>>>>
>>>>The 'burbs are hilly and parts are thickly wooded, and the
>>>>infrastructure is old. Mostly it's wind blowing branches (or trees)
>>>>down that takes out lines, but there's a lot of trees, some of them
>>>>old and decrepit. And kudzu. I don't expect they get outages downtown.
>>>
>>> This city vs suburbia vs countryside reliability comparison is
>>> pretty much everywhere. Downtown has had three 1-2 hour power cuts
>>> since Nixon resigned. But out here in outer suburbia we have them
>>> every month or so,
>>
>>We don’t see anything like that in outer suburbia here.
>>
>>> with a longer one (up to 8 hours) every year or so.
>>
>>Its very rare to get them for anything like that long here.
>>
>>> I have wired the house with a 12V battery backed computer and essentials
>>> power supply, have a wood fireplace and a small, 1kW petrol generator.
>>
>>I did get a petrol generator from a garage/yard sale for just $20
>>but have never actually gotten around to even checking if it works.
>>
>>> As well as a partial gas stove.
>>
>>I do have the camping gas stove but have only ever used it
>>the once due to a mains failure in the 50 years I have had it.
>>
>>> The batteries are good for around a
>>> day, somewhat more if I shut down stuff, somewhat less if I drive lots
>>> of lights from it.
>>>
>>> The upside is that the actual grid is pretty well thought out, they
>>> just haven't got the funds to have automated switching everywhere for
>>> the local supply, so they will have to send someone out to reroute
>>> stuff if there are shorts on some local 21kV lines that blow out fuses.
>>
>>We have automatic reclosers on ours. The only time there needs
>>to be any manual action is when one of the transformers is taken
>>out, usually due to a lightning strike, or when one of the big poles
>>which have the 11KV lines at the top of them is blown down like
>>did happen not that long ago when a mini tornado when thru the
>>town and took out a massive number of trees that took more than
>>a month to get all the downed trees removed. No houses were lost.
>
> We have got reclosers too, but they stay open if there are permanent
> shorts or strong faults to earth.

True.

> If this happens they need to re-patch by isolating
> the shorted line; and this requires sending people out.

They just remove the short here and yes, that does need someone
to do that. If its something that can't be fixed quickly, like say one
of the poles has come down because someone has driven into it
or the wind has blown it down, that just sees the affected section
without power until its fixed. But that doesn’t happen very often
for a particular consumer. I've only had one of those in 40 years,
that mini tornado that took out a pole that is 500m from my house.
That happened in the early evening and the power was back by the
time I got up around 6am. Obviously they had worked thru the
night to do that, massive great concrete pole with the 11KV
supply at the top.

> They can get to even the most remote stations within around 90 minutes,
> and this is pretty much the max duration of local faults. Population
> centers (i.e. more than 20 houses) are located at the eyes of the
> figure-8s and have at least two primary and one disaster path out.

> They thought out the grid pretty well, it is 4 "figure-8" on top
> of each other

We don’t have anything like that here with that figure 8 stuff.

Not clear why we get far fewer dropouts per year.

> with supplies from two small hydropower stations and
> the national grid in 3 places.

Ours are all part of the national grid that covers the highest
population density part of the country but which includes
great swathes with almost no one living there.

> The hydro stations can run it alone in summer,

Our hydro system is essentially a pumped water buffer
for the national grid. We don’t get a lot of direct hydro
from it even tho it’s a massive system.

> but in winter we need at least one of the external supplies.
> Pure outages (without permanent shorts) usually last
> 2-6 seconds, enough to have a computer reboot and one of the
> fridges to forget its settings, but no worse than that.

We don’t get very many of those at all, not as many
as the other outages which last for a while but almost
never for more than part of a day apart from the massive
flood situation where they can be turned off for a week
or so until the water has gone away.

> This is done on 21 kV. Some of the lines, poles, platforms and transformer
> shacks date from the 1930s, but everything was renewed and upgraded
> from 4kV to 21kV around 1990. Before that outages could last days.

We have never had much of that apart from the
deliberate turning off due to massive floods.

> There is a SPOF in the pole routing of the 50kV external feeds,
> which will be solved by having a 21kV sea cable installed next
> summer to the next municipality, which will give both of them
> emergency feeds even through winter.

Our system is almost entirely 500KV and 330KV lines that make
up the national grid with mostly 11KV distribution from those.

There is a sea cable to Tasmania and its currently got a problem
but Tasmania can operate without it when that is necessary.

> They are converting neighbourhoods slowly from 235TT to 400TN-S,
> to save copper and/or have longer local supply stretches.

We are mostly undergrounding ours gradually
but aren't changing the system when we do that.

>>> This happens when we have storms in the winter.
>>> But it is normally fixed withon a few hours.
>>
>>> Whereas downtown they haven't had a single > 2seconds power cut
>>> for nearly 15 years.
>>
>>New Zealand has has a couple, massive
>>cable failure. We havent had any of those.
>>
>>Quite a bit of Brisbane was turned off for a while in the relatively
>>recent massive floods, but that was deliberate turning off, not failure.
>>
>>> The last one was when a core tranformer blew up
>>> due to lack of oil cooling in 2001. The 2 seconds are for
>>> the automated relays to throw the load to a different supply.
>>
>>> This seems to be the story almost everywhere.
>>
>>No its not on your monthly failures in suburbia.
>
> Outer suburbia, almost rural. Well, agricultural in several places
> with 4 smaller population centers of 2-4000 people each.

Yeah, ours is very similar population centers wise, yes agricultural.

> Located on a peninsula quite close to the city, but the land
> route is around 75 km from the tip of the peninsula to the city.

> The national grid is around 10 km away from the root of the peninsula,
> and there are two pole rows feeding two transformer stations, but they
> are very close, and are connected to a and b sides of the 420kV grid
> in the same place.

> This does not conform to national standards for redundancy.

We don’t have a lot of redundancy in that sense.

> Therefore the sea cable install next summer.

We only have that with Tasmania which is similar to yours
in some ways but not a peninsular, completely separate
island. It does have a lot more true hydro than the mainland.

So does New Zealand. 

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upgrading to telco DSL--charges? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-06 12:46 -0800
  Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-06 19:24 -0500
  Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-06 19:18 -0600
    Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2016-01-07 19:52 -0600
      Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-08 10:22 -0800
        Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? The New Other Guy <Newsgnus@gmail.com> - 2016-01-08 10:49 -0800
        Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-08 23:46 -0600
          Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? "879" <879@nospam.com> - 2016-01-09 18:11 +1100
            Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-09 11:56 -0600
              Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? "879" <879@nospam.com> - 2016-01-10 06:17 +1100
              Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-09 19:21 +0100
                Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-09 11:59 -0800
                Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? Lon <lon.stowell@comcast.net> - 2016-01-10 14:29 -0700
                Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? "879" <879@nospam.com> - 2016-01-10 08:07 +1100
                Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-10 12:08 +0100
                Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? "879" <879@nospam.com> - 2016-01-11 04:16 +1100
              Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-09 14:41 -0500
              Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-09 11:57 -0800
                Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? "879" <879@nospam.com> - 2016-01-10 08:11 +1100
            Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? Lon <lon.stowell@comcast.net> - 2016-01-10 14:31 -0700
  Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? The New Other Guy <Newsgnus@gmail.com> - 2016-01-06 17:52 -0800
  Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? "Jack Myers" <jmyers@n6wuz.net> - 2016-01-08 10:15 -0800
    Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-08 22:12 +0100
      Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2016-01-08 17:11 -0600
    Re: upgrading to telco DSL--charges? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-08 18:06 -0500

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