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Groups > alt.comp.os.windows-11 > #33415 > unrolled thread

"Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance"

Started by"Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com>
First post2026-07-29 14:15 -0400
Last post2026-08-10 13:07 -0700
Articles 20 on this page of 103 — 18 participants

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Contents

  "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-07-29 14:15 -0400
    Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-07-29 21:57 +0000
      Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-07-29 18:05 -0400
        Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Nick Charles <none@none.none> - 2026-07-30 02:31 +0000
          Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-07-30 06:16 -0400
        Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-07-30 05:03 +0000
          Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2026-07-30 02:55 -0400
            Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-07-30 16:49 +0000
              Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-30 21:59 +0000
                Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-07-31 08:37 +0000
          Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-07-30 06:18 -0400
            Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-07-30 16:50 +0000
          Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-07-30 12:38 +0100
            Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-07-30 16:51 +0000
              Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2026-07-30 14:18 -0400
                Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-30 22:50 +0000
                  Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2026-07-30 22:10 -0400
                  Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2026-07-31 16:37 +0000
                Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-07-31 08:48 +0000
                  Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2026-07-31 15:50 -0400
                    Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "....winston" <winstonmvp@gmail.com> - 2026-08-01 02:20 -0400
                      Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2026-08-01 04:53 -0400
                        Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "....winston" <winstonmvp@gmail.com> - 2026-08-02 03:05 -0400
        Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Alan K." <alan@invalid.com> - 2026-07-30 08:37 -0400
          Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-07-30 08:44 -0400
          Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-07-30 14:42 +0100
      Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Nick Charles <none@none.none> - 2026-07-30 03:01 +0000
        Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-07-30 05:02 +0000
        Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2026-07-30 01:31 -0400
          Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-07-30 20:32 -0400
        Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-07-30 09:04 -0400
        Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2026-07-30 19:42 +0000
          Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-07-30 15:52 -0400
            Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2026-07-30 17:16 -0400
              Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-07-30 17:46 -0400
              Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2026-07-30 17:02 -0500
                Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-07-30 19:03 -0400
                  Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2026-07-30 19:39 -0400
                Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2026-07-30 19:33 -0400
                  Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2026-07-31 07:21 -0500
                  Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-07-31 11:16 -0400
                Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2026-07-31 12:51 +0000
                Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2026-07-31 16:43 +0000
              Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> - 2026-07-30 22:22 +0000
                Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-07-30 18:34 -0400
                  Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> - 2026-07-30 22:37 +0000
        Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-07-30 20:15 -0400
        Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-08-02 14:43 +0200
          Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2026-08-02 13:18 -0400
            Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-08-02 23:17 +0200
    Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-07-30 11:43 -0400
    Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-08-05 12:15 -0700
      Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-08-05 15:23 -0400
        Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-08-05 12:26 -0700
          Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-08-05 15:40 -0400
            Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-08-05 12:59 -0700
              Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-08-05 16:05 -0400
                Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-08-05 13:10 -0700
                  Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-08-05 16:32 -0400
                    Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-08-06 14:49 -0700
                      Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-08-06 18:08 -0400
                        Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-08-06 15:35 -0700
                          Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-08-06 18:44 -0400
                            Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-08-06 17:25 -0700
                              Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-08-07 11:26 -0400
                                Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-08-08 11:58 -0700
                                  Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-08-08 15:35 -0400
                                    Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-08-08 13:19 -0700
                                      Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-08-08 17:44 -0400
                                  Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2026-08-08 16:46 -0400
                  Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2026-08-05 17:22 -0400
                    Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-08-05 17:27 -0400
                      Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-08-05 14:48 -0700
                        Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-08-05 17:56 -0400
                          Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2026-08-05 18:05 -0400
                            Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-08-05 18:08 -0400
                              Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2026-08-06 04:47 -0400
                              Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-08-06 14:49 -0700
                                Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-08-06 18:04 -0400
                                  Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-08-06 15:36 -0700
                                    Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-08-06 18:45 -0400
                                    Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2026-08-07 01:12 -0400
                                      Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-08-07 07:31 -0400
                                        Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2026-08-07 11:02 -0400
                                  Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2026-08-07 14:03 +0000
                                    Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-08-07 11:34 -0400
                                Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-07 07:15 +0800
                                Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> - 2026-08-10 10:35 +0000
                                  Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-08-10 08:05 -0400
                                    Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2026-08-10 11:32 -0400
                                      Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2026-08-10 18:39 -0400
                                        Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2026-08-10 20:55 -0400
                                        Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-08-11 08:44 -0400
                                          Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-08-11 10:30 -0400
                                        Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-08-11 10:21 -0400
                                      Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-08-11 08:43 -0400
                                        Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2026-08-11 15:03 -0400
                                        Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-08-11 17:00 -0400
                                          Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-08-11 14:23 -0700
                                            Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-08-11 17:26 -0400
                                              Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-08-11 14:33 -0700
                                                Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-08-11 17:42 -0400
                                  Re: "Surface Laptop Enjoy the performance" Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-08-10 13:07 -0700

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#33479

FromChris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us>
Date2026-07-31 11:16 -0400
Message-ID<114ie80$2q48m$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#33460
Paul wrote this screed in ALL-CAPS (fixed):

> On Thu, 7/30/2026 6:02 PM, chrisv wrote:
>> Paul wrote:
>> 
>>> And that is how Linux does things. 
>> 
>> And how does Windows do things, if the user needs to install it?
>> 
>> If someone can't obtain a USB stick and use the brain-dead-easy Rufus
>> on it and figure-out how to boot from it, then yeah, they are going to
>> want to buy a PC with the OS already installed.
>> 
>
> Windows is installed at the factory.
>
> The thing is, nothing is left to chance.

:-D

> The rails are greased.
>
> Linux does not have that advantage, no automated
> media preparation machines putting images on storage.
> The factory has the automation to do this stuff
> for their Windows products.
>
> The Linux ecosystem is unlikely to have the funding
> or resources, to do this.

See below about the Linux ecosystem.

> It's not going to happen by spending one hour per
> four hundred million candidate users.
>
> If someone tells me statcounter reports 29% Linux users,
> I need to see "cause and effect". How did magically,
> 29% users inherit enough brain power and certainty,
> to get Linux running ? Whereas if someone told me a story
> about a "new WUBI" and a campaign to inform people,
> if you then told me statcounter said 29%, I might believe you.
> But that line doesn't go up, just because there is a
> gentle breeze in the room. Something has to do the
> heavy lifting.

Hmmm, perhaps near-ubiquitous devices, like the Roku, that
are using Linux.

I wonder if they count Android as Linux (they shouldn't).

> <snip>

A lot depends on how the pollsters get their data.

-- 
Bread and Circuits:
	The electronic era tendency to view party politics as corny --
no longer relevant of meaningful or useful to modern societal issues,
and in many cases dangerous.
		-- Douglas Coupland, "Generation X: Tales for an Accelerated
		   Culture"

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#33474

FromFrank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
Date2026-07-31 12:51 +0000
Message-ID<114icq8.194k.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>
In reply to#33452
chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> Paul wrote:
> 
> >And that is how Linux does things. 
> 
> And how does Windows do things, if the user needs to install it?

  As Paul explained, such an 'install' scenario/need doesn't exist.
Windows is already on the buyer's 'disk', nearly ready to run, only
needs some questions to be answered.

  And *if*, Windows needs to be *re*-installed (but is still somewhat
functioning), it can be re-installed on-line, from an ISO, etc., no need
for USB memory-sticks, etc..

  So, it's the *change* of type of OS which is the problem. *If* Joe
User could - easily and economically - buy a system with Linux
nearly-ready-to-run already on the 'disk', we wouldn't be having this
'discussion'.

> If someone can't obtain a USB stick and use the brain-dead-easy Rufus
> on it and figure-out how to boot from it, then yeah, they are going to
> want to buy a PC with the OS already installed.

  Which in nearly 100% of the situations, would be a Windows system, Mac
or ChromeBook. Sad, but true.

  On a positive note: In 2008 (or earlier), I already bought an (Acer
Aspire One) mini-notebook ('netbook') with Linux ('Linpus', based on
Fedora) pre-installed! How about *them* apples? Oops! :-)

<https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=linpus>

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linpus_Linux>

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#33481

FromMark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid>
Date2026-07-31 16:43 +0000
Message-ID<6a6cd0cf$1$26$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com>
In reply to#33452
On Thu, 30 Jul 2026 17:02:54 -0500, chrisv wrote:

> Paul wrote:
> 
>>And that is how Linux does things.
> 
> And how does Windows do things, if the user needs to install it?
> 
> If someone can't obtain a USB stick and use the brain-dead-easy Rufus on
> it and figure-out how to boot from it, then yeah, they are going to want
> to buy a PC with the OS already installed.

I always install my own OS.

-- 
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#33453

Fromvallor <vallor@vallor.earth>
Date2026-07-30 22:22 +0000
Message-ID<114giqq$25vi4$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#33448
At Thu, 30 Jul 2026 17:16:36 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

> On Thu, 7/30/2026 3:52 PM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
> > On 7/30/2026 3:42 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> >> 
> >> Linux is slowly growing, about time and good on 'them'.
> > 
> > Linux is growing, and even Mac is doing things, but Windows will always be the default platform.
> 
> Linux has no self-promotion capability to speak of.

What Linux needs is some kind of "Geek Squad" service provider
for people needing guru help.

Just like MS Windows users have "Geek Squad".  You have (at least)
two levels of user:  "user" and "guru".  I know a grandmother who
uses Linux, and uses Pan to post to Usenet.  She's a "user".  If she
needs help, she gets ahold of her daughter, a "guru".

Most people are like that.  For MS Windows, if they don't have
a family member or friend to consult, there's always the local
computer shop, "Geek Squad", etc.

There are these "Linux Cafes" popping up everywhere.
A lot of the old LUGs are still around.  Very grass roots.
Maybe there's a market opportunity for a "Linux Squad"..."I see
a great need"...

> The local sources of USB sticks,
> when I've looked at the inventory, it wasn't looking good. But
> that's happened before. Like the Best Buy having some sticks laying
> in the bottom of a cabinet, not even properly faced up on display,
> and the customer was expected to paw through these and pick a
> winner.

I just looked at Staples on Instacart, and they seem to have
plenty of USB stick choices.  I can have one delivered in an
hour or so. YMMV of course.

(Someone with patience might just use Amazon.)

-- 
-v System76 Thelio Mega v1.1 x86_64 Mem: 258G
   OS: Linux 7.1.5 D: Mint 22.3 DE: Xfce 4.18 (X11)
   NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090Ti (24G) (610.43.02)
   "A friend: someone who likes you even after they know you."

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#33454

From"Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com>
Date2026-07-30 18:34 -0400
Message-ID<114gjh8$26o8t$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#33453
On 7/30/2026 6:22 PM, vallor wrote:
> At Thu, 30 Jul 2026 17:16:36 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>> On Thu, 7/30/2026 3:52 PM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
>>> On 7/30/2026 3:42 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Linux is slowly growing, about time and good on 'them'.
>>>
>>> Linux is growing, and even Mac is doing things, but Windows will always be the default platform.
>>
>> Linux has no self-promotion capability to speak of.
> 
> What Linux needs is some kind of "Geek Squad" service provider
> for people needing guru help.
> 
> Just like MS Windows users have "Geek Squad".  You have (at least)
> two levels of user:  "user" and "guru".  I know a grandmother who
> uses Linux, and uses Pan to post to Usenet.  She's a "user".  If she
> needs help, she gets ahold of her daughter, a "guru".
> 
> Most people are like that.  For MS Windows, if they don't have
> a family member or friend to consult, there's always the local
> computer shop, "Geek Squad", etc.
> 
> There are these "Linux Cafes" popping up everywhere.
> A lot of the old LUGs are still around.  Very grass roots.
> Maybe there's a market opportunity for a "Linux Squad"..."I see
> a great need"...


Correct, Linux can be utilized by non-tech people who have a helper.

-- 
Joel W. Crump

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#33455

Fromvallor <vallor@vallor.earth>
Date2026-07-30 22:37 +0000
Message-ID<114gjmp$25vi4$3@dont-email.me>
In reply to#33454
At Thu, 30 Jul 2026 18:34:16 -0400, "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 7/30/2026 6:22 PM, vallor wrote:
> > At Thu, 30 Jul 2026 17:16:36 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 7/30/2026 3:52 PM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
> >>> On 7/30/2026 3:42 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Linux is slowly growing, about time and good on 'them'.
> >>>
> >>> Linux is growing, and even Mac is doing things, but Windows will always be the default platform.
> >>
> >> Linux has no self-promotion capability to speak of.
> > 
> > What Linux needs is some kind of "Geek Squad" service provider
> > for people needing guru help.
> > 
> > Just like MS Windows users have "Geek Squad".  You have (at least)
> > two levels of user:  "user" and "guru".  I know a grandmother who
> > uses Linux, and uses Pan to post to Usenet.  She's a "user".  If she
> > needs help, she gets ahold of her daughter, a "guru".
> > 
> > Most people are like that.  For MS Windows, if they don't have
> > a family member or friend to consult, there's always the local
> > computer shop, "Geek Squad", etc.
> > 
> > There are these "Linux Cafes" popping up everywhere.
> > A lot of the old LUGs are still around.  Very grass roots.
> > Maybe there's a market opportunity for a "Linux Squad"..."I see
> > a great need"...
> 
> 
> Correct, Linux can be utilized by non-tech people who have a helper.

Right, but the problem is that there are more people familiar with
Windows systems than Linux systems, so you're family member/departmental
guru/computer shop is more likely to be Windows-savvy than
Linux-savvy.

-- 
-v System76 Thelio Mega v1.1 x86_64 Mem: 258G
   OS: Linux 7.1.5 D: Mint 22.3 DE: Xfce 4.18 (X11)
   NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090Ti (24G) (610.43.02)
   "Everyone hates me because I'm paranoid"

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#33464

FromCrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge>
Date2026-07-30 20:15 -0400
Message-ID<6a6be93d$0$21$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com>
In reply to#33421
On 2026-07-29 11:01 p.m., Nick Charles wrote:
> On Jul 29, 2026 at 5:57:05 PM EDT, "Brock McNuggets"
> <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Jul 29, 2026 at 11:15:38 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
>> <114dg0b$133f6$1@dont-email.me>:
>>
>>> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-laptop
>>>
>>>
>>> This is just great, an ARM Microsoft-brand laptop, so state-of-the-art,
>>> so cool.  Expensive, admittedly, heh.  Comes with Win11 Home, BTW.  Not
>>> Pro.  I don't get that.  A mini PC from China has a false but yet
>>> workable license for 11 Pro, but this thing is legit so it has Home.
>>> People with money who don't really know computers make a cash cow for
>>> MS, heh.
>>
>> Both the site and the product seem heavily inspired by Apple. But good...
>> competition benefits us all.
> 
> Because Windows is tanking and Mac is growing.  Thus Microsoft desperately
> wants the few remaining Surface PCs to "look like" Apple. But the problem with
> Windows PCs is - are you sitting down? - WINDOWS.  Not the PC hardware.

I concur with this. A guy on Reddit was shocked that I suggested he run 
sfc for his slow Windows PC. He replied that the installation was only 
ten days old, and I had to inform him that I get corrupted system files 
within the first day of an installation. I install the OS at 10am, 
download every application I need, update and by 7pm I run sfc and am 
not shocked that something is corrupted.

> Windows is a Dead End. Linux is also growing. How long before Dell or Asus or
> HP or Lenovo start selling PCs with Linux installed?  Dell has already
> publicly stated that the whole "Copilot PC" thing is a failure. No one is
> interested.

No one is interested, but the alternative for them is not Linux. The 
software people need is still exclusive to Windows. While that is true, 
they will continue to use Windows. Think of the software dentists and 
doctors use or the accounting software people learned while they were in 
their schools; there are no Linux versions.

> Meanwhile, Google is going to be selling Android PCs.  How much longer can
> Windows survive?

For a little bit longer. As long as the software is on Windows, and I'm 
including the software from the 90s some businesses still sometimes need 
to run, Linux is not a realistic alternative. Its best bet is state 
computers.

-- 
CrudeSausage
M4 MacBook Air
"Derka, derka, Muhammad jihad!"

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#33508

From"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Date2026-08-02 14:43 +0200
Message-ID<nd8sanFdbe7U2@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#33421
On 2026-07-30 05:01, Nick Charles wrote:
> Windows is a Dead End. Linux is also growing. How long before Dell or Asus or
> HP or Lenovo start selling PCs with Linux installed?

Lenovo does, since long time. Maybe your local shop doesn't sell them, 
but you can buy direct from Lenovo, even customize the laptop.

-- 
Cheers,
        Carlos E.R.
        ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#33514

FromPaul <nospam@needed.invalid>
Date2026-08-02 13:18 -0400
Message-ID<114nu5k$lks0$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#33508
On Sun, 8/2/2026 8:43 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2026-07-30 05:01, Nick Charles wrote:
>> Windows is a Dead End. Linux is also growing. How long before Dell or Asus or
>> HP or Lenovo start selling PCs with Linux installed?
> 
> Lenovo does, since long time. Maybe your local shop doesn't sell them, but you can buy direct from Lenovo, even customize the laptop.
> 

What appears at retail, is all a function of under-the-table dealings.

There is a reason at the grocery store, the Tidy detergent display
is 40 feet long and 8 feet high. It's because the manufacturer of
the stuff, "buys up" the shelf space so competitors cannot advertise
their wares. It's not because they're moving 320 units per day, every day.
The Tide shelving, hardly ever has a gap from a removed unit.

Our bread shelves are under similar pressure. The bread suppliers
send their own representatives to stock the bread shelves, with
the opportunity to give a competitors loaf "a poke".

I'm not aware of what controls the "Table Of Shame" at the
computer store, but it isn't Mother Theresa.

Some "Invisible Force" keeps Linux off the "Table Of Shame" :-)

   Paul

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#33521

From"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Date2026-08-02 23:17 +0200
Message-ID<nd9qfjFi0qmU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#33514
On 2026-08-02 19:18, Paul wrote:
> On Sun, 8/2/2026 8:43 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 2026-07-30 05:01, Nick Charles wrote:
>>> Windows is a Dead End. Linux is also growing. How long before Dell or Asus or
>>> HP or Lenovo start selling PCs with Linux installed?
>>
>> Lenovo does, since long time. Maybe your local shop doesn't sell them, but you can buy direct from Lenovo, even customize the laptop.
>>
> 
> What appears at retail, is all a function of under-the-table dealings.
> 
> There is a reason at the grocery store, the Tidy detergent display
> is 40 feet long and 8 feet high. It's because the manufacturer of
> the stuff, "buys up" the shelf space so competitors cannot advertise
> their wares. It's not because they're moving 320 units per day, every day.
> The Tide shelving, hardly ever has a gap from a removed unit.

I don't think that happens here, LOL :-)

> 
> Our bread shelves are under similar pressure. The bread suppliers
> send their own representatives to stock the bread shelves, with
> the opportunity to give a competitors loaf "a poke".
> 
> I'm not aware of what controls the "Table Of Shame" at the
> computer store, but it isn't Mother Theresa.
> 
> Some "Invisible Force" keeps Linux off the "Table Of Shame" :-)
> 
>     Paul
> 


-- 
Cheers,
        Carlos E.R.
        ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#33439

FromChris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us>
Date2026-07-30 11:43 -0400
Message-ID<114frft$1t9jb$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#33415
Joel W. Crump wrote this screed in ALL-CAPS (fixed):

> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-laptop
>
> This is just great, an ARM Microsoft-brand laptop, so state-of-the-art, 
> so cool.  Expensive, admittedly, heh.  Comes with Win11 Home, BTW.  Not 
> Pro.  I don't get that.  A mini PC from China has a false but yet 
> workable license for 11 Pro, but this thing is legit so it has Home. 
> People with money who don't really know computers make a cash cow for 
> MS, heh.

Reminds me of my Lenovo Flex 14 I bought years ago, which is still
going strong, thanks to Arch Linux and a few silicone keyboard
covers. It's a Intel Core 7 tho.

-- 
Now KEN and BARBIE are PERMANENTLY ADDICTED to MIND-ALTERING DRUGS ...

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#33531

FromAlan <nuh-uh@nope.com>
Date2026-08-05 12:15 -0700
Message-ID<115024n$38p4s$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#33415
On 2026-07-29 11:15, Joel W. Crump wrote:
> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-laptop
> 
> 
> This is just great, an ARM Microsoft-brand laptop, so state-of-the-art, 
> so cool.  Expensive, admittedly, heh.  Comes with Win11 Home, BTW.  Not 
> Pro.  I don't get that.  A mini PC from China has a false but yet 
> workable license for 11 Pro, but this thing is legit so it has Home. 
> People with money who don't really know computers make a cash cow for 
> MS, heh.
> 

Or get a better, faster system for less and buy a MacBook Neo.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#33532

From"Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com>
Date2026-08-05 15:23 -0400
Message-ID<11502jo$392ik$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#33531
On 8/5/2026 3:15 PM, Alan wrote:

>> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-laptop
>>
>>
>> This is just great, an ARM Microsoft-brand laptop, so state-of-the- 
>> art, so cool.  Expensive, admittedly, heh.  Comes with Win11 Home, 
>> BTW.  Not Pro.  I don't get that.  A mini PC from China has a false 
>> but yet workable license for 11 Pro, but this thing is legit so it has 
>> Home. People with money who don't really know computers make a cash 
>> cow for MS, heh.
> 
> Or get a better, faster system for less and buy a MacBook Neo.


Maybe a better value in a way, but it's Apple, so no way I'd be 
interested.  I wouldn't buy a Surface, either, though, because it's OEM 
Wintendo bullshit, a mini PC with a legitimate Win11 license purchased 
from Microsoft (just use "change product key" in settings) is perfect 
for me.

-- 
Joel W. Crump

Zyprexa - It's not just for schizophrenics, anymore!

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#33533

FromAlan <nuh-uh@nope.com>
Date2026-08-05 12:26 -0700
Message-ID<11502p4$392s2$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#33532
On 2026-08-05 12:23, Joel W. Crump wrote:
> On 8/5/2026 3:15 PM, Alan wrote:
> 
>>> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-laptop
>>>
>>>
>>> This is just great, an ARM Microsoft-brand laptop, so state-of-the- 
>>> art, so cool.  Expensive, admittedly, heh.  Comes with Win11 Home, 
>>> BTW.  Not Pro.  I don't get that.  A mini PC from China has a false 
>>> but yet workable license for 11 Pro, but this thing is legit so it 
>>> has Home. People with money who don't really know computers make a 
>>> cash cow for MS, heh.
>>
>> Or get a better, faster system for less and buy a MacBook Neo.
> 
> 
> Maybe a better value in a way, but it's Apple, so no way I'd be 
> interested.  I wouldn't buy a Surface, either, though, because it's OEM 
> Wintendo bullshit, a mini PC with a legitimate Win11 license purchased 
> from Microsoft (just use "change product key" in settings) is perfect 
> for me.
> 

You not being interested in better value is what make you a zealot, not 
a rational person.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#33534

From"Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com>
Date2026-08-05 15:40 -0400
Message-ID<11503jh$39d2d$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#33533
On 8/5/2026 3:26 PM, Alan wrote:

>>>> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-laptop
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is just great, an ARM Microsoft-brand laptop, so state-of-the- 
>>>> art, so cool.  Expensive, admittedly, heh.  Comes with Win11 Home, 
>>>> BTW.  Not Pro.  I don't get that.  A mini PC from China has a false 
>>>> but yet workable license for 11 Pro, but this thing is legit so it 
>>>> has Home. People with money who don't really know computers make a 
>>>> cash cow for MS, heh.
>>>
>>> Or get a better, faster system for less and buy a MacBook Neo.
>>
>> Maybe a better value in a way, but it's Apple, so no way I'd be 
>> interested.  I wouldn't buy a Surface, either, though, because it's 
>> OEM Wintendo bullshit, a mini PC with a legitimate Win11 license 
>> purchased from Microsoft (just use "change product key" in settings) 
>> is perfect for me.
> 
> You not being interested in better value is what make you a zealot, not 
> a rational person.


Uh, dude, read what I wrote, I did get a better value, by not getting 
*either* of the Neo or the Surface corporate products.  I paid an 
inexpensive price for the hardware, and $200 for Win11 Pro retail.  That 
is the best value *possible*.

-- 
Joel W. Crump

Zyprexa - It's not just for schizophrenics, anymore!

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#33535

FromAlan <nuh-uh@nope.com>
Date2026-08-05 12:59 -0700
Message-ID<11504nf$39pt9$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#33534
On 2026-08-05 12:40, Joel W. Crump wrote:
> On 8/5/2026 3:26 PM, Alan wrote:
> 
>>>>> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-laptop
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is just great, an ARM Microsoft-brand laptop, so state-of-the- 
>>>>> art, so cool.  Expensive, admittedly, heh.  Comes with Win11 Home, 
>>>>> BTW.  Not Pro.  I don't get that.  A mini PC from China has a false 
>>>>> but yet workable license for 11 Pro, but this thing is legit so it 
>>>>> has Home. People with money who don't really know computers make a 
>>>>> cash cow for MS, heh.
>>>>
>>>> Or get a better, faster system for less and buy a MacBook Neo.
>>>
>>> Maybe a better value in a way, but it's Apple, so no way I'd be 
>>> interested.  I wouldn't buy a Surface, either, though, because it's 
>>> OEM Wintendo bullshit, a mini PC with a legitimate Win11 license 
>>> purchased from Microsoft (just use "change product key" in settings) 
>>> is perfect for me.
>>
>> You not being interested in better value is what make you a zealot, 
>> not a rational person.
> 
> 
> Uh, dude, read what I wrote, I did get a better value, by not getting 
> *either* of the Neo or the Surface corporate products.  I paid an 
> inexpensive price for the hardware, and $200 for Win11 Pro retail.  That 
> is the best value *possible*.
> 

And how many "upgrades" did you have to make to make your computer right?

Lay it all out

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#33536

From"Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com>
Date2026-08-05 16:05 -0400
Message-ID<1150529$39udg$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#33535
On 8/5/2026 3:59 PM, Alan wrote:

>>>>>> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-laptop
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is just great, an ARM Microsoft-brand laptop, so state-of- 
>>>>>> the- art, so cool.  Expensive, admittedly, heh.  Comes with Win11 
>>>>>> Home, BTW.  Not Pro.  I don't get that.  A mini PC from China has 
>>>>>> a false but yet workable license for 11 Pro, but this thing is 
>>>>>> legit so it has Home. People with money who don't really know 
>>>>>> computers make a cash cow for MS, heh.
>>>>>
>>>>> Or get a better, faster system for less and buy a MacBook Neo.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe a better value in a way, but it's Apple, so no way I'd be 
>>>> interested.  I wouldn't buy a Surface, either, though, because it's 
>>>> OEM Wintendo bullshit, a mini PC with a legitimate Win11 license 
>>>> purchased from Microsoft (just use "change product key" in settings) 
>>>> is perfect for me.
>>>
>>> You not being interested in better value is what make you a zealot, 
>>> not a rational person.
>>
>> Uh, dude, read what I wrote, I did get a better value, by not getting 
>> *either* of the Neo or the Surface corporate products.  I paid an 
>> inexpensive price for the hardware, and $200 for Win11 Pro retail.  
>> That is the best value *possible*.
> 
> And how many "upgrades" did you have to make to make your computer right?
> 
> Lay it all out


This time, I realized that what I had before was overkill.  I literally 
had a self-assembled system with 32 GB RAM, dual NVMe drives, six cores 
12 threads on the CPU, running *Linux*, and previously Win11.  This 
inexpensive mini PC from China runs Win11 in 16 GB RAM *shared with* the 
GPU, so it's really more like 12 GB available, has 512 GB storage, but 
it "just works", with four cores eight threads.  You simply don't need 
more than what I have for basic Winblows usage.  I don't game.  I'm just 
enjoying the benefit of how tech has advanced to where something like 
this can be a workable system.

-- 
Joel W. Crump

Zyprexa - It's not just for schizophrenics, anymore!

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#33537

FromAlan <nuh-uh@nope.com>
Date2026-08-05 13:10 -0700
Message-ID<11505bo$3a12p$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#33536
On 2026-08-05 13:05, Joel W. Crump wrote:
> On 8/5/2026 3:59 PM, Alan wrote:
> 
>>>>>>> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-laptop
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is just great, an ARM Microsoft-brand laptop, so state-of- 
>>>>>>> the- art, so cool.  Expensive, admittedly, heh.  Comes with Win11 
>>>>>>> Home, BTW.  Not Pro.  I don't get that.  A mini PC from China has 
>>>>>>> a false but yet workable license for 11 Pro, but this thing is 
>>>>>>> legit so it has Home. People with money who don't really know 
>>>>>>> computers make a cash cow for MS, heh.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or get a better, faster system for less and buy a MacBook Neo.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe a better value in a way, but it's Apple, so no way I'd be 
>>>>> interested.  I wouldn't buy a Surface, either, though, because it's 
>>>>> OEM Wintendo bullshit, a mini PC with a legitimate Win11 license 
>>>>> purchased from Microsoft (just use "change product key" in 
>>>>> settings) is perfect for me.
>>>>
>>>> You not being interested in better value is what make you a zealot, 
>>>> not a rational person.
>>>
>>> Uh, dude, read what I wrote, I did get a better value, by not getting 
>>> *either* of the Neo or the Surface corporate products.  I paid an 
>>> inexpensive price for the hardware, and $200 for Win11 Pro retail. 
>>> That is the best value *possible*.
>>
>> And how many "upgrades" did you have to make to make your computer right?
>>
>> Lay it all out
> 
> 
> This time, I realized that what I had before was overkill.  I literally 
> had a self-assembled system with 32 GB RAM, dual NVMe drives, six cores 
> 12 threads on the CPU, running *Linux*, and previously Win11.  This 
> inexpensive mini PC from China runs Win11 in 16 GB RAM *shared with* the 
> GPU, so it's really more like 12 GB available, has 512 GB storage, but 
> it "just works", with four cores eight threads.  You simply don't need 
> more than what I have for basic Winblows usage.  I don't game.  I'm just 
> enjoying the benefit of how tech has advanced to where something like 
> this can be a workable system.
> 

No dollar figures...except you're already in $200 for Windows.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#33539

From"Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com>
Date2026-08-05 16:32 -0400
Message-ID<11506la$3agsd$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#33537
On 8/5/2026 4:10 PM, Alan wrote:

>>>>>>>> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-laptop
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is just great, an ARM Microsoft-brand laptop, so state-of- 
>>>>>>>> the- art, so cool.  Expensive, admittedly, heh.  Comes with 
>>>>>>>> Win11 Home, BTW.  Not Pro.  I don't get that.  A mini PC from 
>>>>>>>> China has a false but yet workable license for 11 Pro, but this 
>>>>>>>> thing is legit so it has Home. People with money who don't 
>>>>>>>> really know computers make a cash cow for MS, heh.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or get a better, faster system for less and buy a MacBook Neo.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe a better value in a way, but it's Apple, so no way I'd be 
>>>>>> interested.  I wouldn't buy a Surface, either, though, because 
>>>>>> it's OEM Wintendo bullshit, a mini PC with a legitimate Win11 
>>>>>> license purchased from Microsoft (just use "change product key" in 
>>>>>> settings) is perfect for me.
>>>>>
>>>>> You not being interested in better value is what make you a zealot, 
>>>>> not a rational person.
>>>>
>>>> Uh, dude, read what I wrote, I did get a better value, by not 
>>>> getting *either* of the Neo or the Surface corporate products.  I 
>>>> paid an inexpensive price for the hardware, and $200 for Win11 Pro 
>>>> retail. That is the best value *possible*.
>>>
>>> And how many "upgrades" did you have to make to make your computer 
>>> right?
>>>
>>> Lay it all out
>>
>> This time, I realized that what I had before was overkill.  I 
>> literally had a self-assembled system with 32 GB RAM, dual NVMe 
>> drives, six cores 12 threads on the CPU, running *Linux*, and 
>> previously Win11.  This inexpensive mini PC from China runs Win11 in 
>> 16 GB RAM *shared with* the GPU, so it's really more like 12 GB 
>> available, has 512 GB storage, but it "just works", with four cores 
>> eight threads.  You simply don't need more than what I have for basic 
>> Winblows usage.  I don't game.  I'm just enjoying the benefit of how 
>> tech has advanced to where something like this can be a workable system.
> 
> No dollar figures...except you're already in $200 for Windows.


I paid the $200 because the Win11 Pro that came with it was not 
legitimate intellectual property.  The company in China bought 
gray-market licenses from an organization that sourced such from MS 
previous to that.  That is a violation of MS's license agreement.  They 
tolerate it, maybe, I don't fuck around with sketch software though.  As 
for the cost of the hardware, it was $270 on Amazon.

-- 
Joel W. Crump

Zyprexa - It's not just for schizophrenics, anymore!

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#33559

FromAlan <nuh-uh@nope.com>
Date2026-08-06 14:49 -0700
Message-ID<1152vh3$6hmn$3@dont-email.me>
In reply to#33539
On 2026-08-05 13:32, Joel W. Crump wrote:
> On 8/5/2026 4:10 PM, Alan wrote:
> 
>>>>>>>>> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-laptop
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is just great, an ARM Microsoft-brand laptop, so state-of- 
>>>>>>>>> the- art, so cool.  Expensive, admittedly, heh.  Comes with 
>>>>>>>>> Win11 Home, BTW.  Not Pro.  I don't get that.  A mini PC from 
>>>>>>>>> China has a false but yet workable license for 11 Pro, but this 
>>>>>>>>> thing is legit so it has Home. People with money who don't 
>>>>>>>>> really know computers make a cash cow for MS, heh.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Or get a better, faster system for less and buy a MacBook Neo.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maybe a better value in a way, but it's Apple, so no way I'd be 
>>>>>>> interested.  I wouldn't buy a Surface, either, though, because 
>>>>>>> it's OEM Wintendo bullshit, a mini PC with a legitimate Win11 
>>>>>>> license purchased from Microsoft (just use "change product key" 
>>>>>>> in settings) is perfect for me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You not being interested in better value is what make you a 
>>>>>> zealot, not a rational person.
>>>>>
>>>>> Uh, dude, read what I wrote, I did get a better value, by not 
>>>>> getting *either* of the Neo or the Surface corporate products.  I 
>>>>> paid an inexpensive price for the hardware, and $200 for Win11 Pro 
>>>>> retail. That is the best value *possible*.
>>>>
>>>> And how many "upgrades" did you have to make to make your computer 
>>>> right?
>>>>
>>>> Lay it all out
>>>
>>> This time, I realized that what I had before was overkill.  I 
>>> literally had a self-assembled system with 32 GB RAM, dual NVMe 
>>> drives, six cores 12 threads on the CPU, running *Linux*, and 
>>> previously Win11.  This inexpensive mini PC from China runs Win11 in 
>>> 16 GB RAM *shared with* the GPU, so it's really more like 12 GB 
>>> available, has 512 GB storage, but it "just works", with four cores 
>>> eight threads.  You simply don't need more than what I have for basic 
>>> Winblows usage.  I don't game.  I'm just enjoying the benefit of how 
>>> tech has advanced to where something like this can be a workable system.
>>
>> No dollar figures...except you're already in $200 for Windows.
> 
> 
> I paid the $200 because the Win11 Pro that came with it was not 
> legitimate intellectual property.  The company in China bought gray- 
> market licenses from an organization that sourced such from MS previous 
> to that.  That is a violation of MS's license agreement.  They tolerate 
> it, maybe, I don't fuck around with sketch software though.  As for the 
> cost of the hardware, it was $270 on Amazon.
> 

So you buying from sketchy sources is whose fault?

So you're in for $470...

...if you count your time to put it all together as zero...

...but are you including ALL the costs?

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