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Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science.

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  Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-16 01:33 -0400
    Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-16 20:24 +0800
      Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-16 10:55 -0400
        Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-17 11:01 +0800
      Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. John Ritson <j.ritson@hotmail.co.uk> - 2015-08-16 16:55 +0100
        Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-17 11:11 +0800
          Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-08-17 13:39 +0100
            Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-08-17 12:34 -0400
              Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-08-18 11:55 +0100
            Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-18 01:10 +0800
              Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-08-17 14:38 -0400
          Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. nature bats last <seqklogw@gmail.com> - 2015-08-17 08:56 -0700
            Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-18 01:49 +0800
              Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. nature bats last <seqklogw@gmail.com> - 2015-08-17 11:02 -0700
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2015-08-17 16:12 -0700
                  Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-18 14:11 +0800
                    Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. nature bats last <seqklogw@gmail.com> - 2015-08-18 08:34 -0700
                      Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-19 08:04 +0800
                        Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. nature bats last <seqklogw@gmail.com> - 2015-08-18 18:13 -0700
                          Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-19 21:11 +0800
                            Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. nature bats last <seqklogw@gmail.com> - 2015-08-19 12:26 -0700
                              Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-20 07:08 +0800
                                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. nature bats last <seqklogw@gmail.com> - 2015-08-20 09:31 -0700
                                  Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-08-21 09:59 +0100
                                    Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-21 21:05 +0800
                                      Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. talishi <talishi@example.net> - 2015-08-21 18:44 -0700
                                        Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-08-22 08:50 +0100
                                          Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. talishi <talishi@example.net> - 2015-08-22 07:03 -0700
                                        Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-22 16:37 +0800
                        Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-08-19 10:07 +0100
                          Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-19 21:21 +0800
                          Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. Dreamer In Colore <dreamerincolore@hotmail.com> - 2015-08-19 16:57 -0400
                            Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-08-20 14:51 +0100
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-18 14:14 +0800
                  Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. nature bats last <seqklogw@gmail.com> - 2015-08-18 08:25 -0700
                    Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-19 08:16 +0800
                      Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. nature bats last <seqklogw@gmail.com> - 2015-08-18 18:10 -0700
                        Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-19 21:24 +0800

Page 2 of 2 — ← Prev page 1 [2]

#1964261

On Wednesday, August 19, 2015 at 6:26:25 AM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
> On 2015-08-19 09:13 AM, nature bats last wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 5:17:10 PM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
> >> On 2015-08-18 11:34 PM, nature bats last wrote:
> >>> On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 11:30:15 PM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
> >>>> On 2015-08-18 07:12 AM, Jeanne Douglas wrote:
> >>>>> In article <b0ab36ab-3f79-4496-b325-9a9ae530f140@googlegroups.com>,
> >>>>>     nature bats last <seqklogw@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 10:49:44 AM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 2015-08-17 11:56 PM, nature bats last wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Sunday, August 16, 2015 at 8:11:51 PM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On 2015-08-16 11:55 PM, John Ritson wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> In article <mqpvas$r80$1@dont-email.me>, niunian <niunian@ymail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>> writes
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 2015-08-16 01:33 PM, William December Starr wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> In article <mqke7b$vf2$10@dont-email.me>,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> niunian <niunian@ymail.com> said:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> William December Starr wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> niunian <niunian@ymail.com> said:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Living itself is a purpose. And it is a great purpose. It is to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worship the God of living.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well I guess if you're going to anthropomorphize -- excuse me,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> deus-morphize -- _any_ concept, then yes, any concept is a God of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> something.  That gets us rather deep into "so what?" territory
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> though.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, if we can agree on the fact of life which shows everybody
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> including the atheists has a god of their own on a personal level,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> We can't.  You use the words 'god' and 'God' in ways that are so
> >>>>>>>>>>>> non-standard that I doubt you make sense to anyone but yourself.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> That only because you have never thought of God/god on a personal
> >>>>>>>>>>> level.
> >>>>>>>>>>> God is not out there in the sky. God is within you who is the center
> >>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>> your life. You actually live your life for God even when you call
> >>>>>>>>>>> yourself an atheist.
> >>>>>>>>>> So (according to you) everybody lives their life for God.
> >>>>>>>>>>> When you don't live your life for the God within
> >>>>>>>>>>> you, you always suffer in life.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ..> > But since (according to you) everybody lives their life for God,
> >>>>>>>> nobody
> >>>>>>>> ..> > 'always suffers'.
> >>>>>>>> ..> > You are just talking rubbish.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ..> No. If we can always live our lives for God, we would never suffer.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> .> > Try that one out on someone with reflex sympathetic dystrophy
> >>>>>> .> > or paroxysmal extreme pain disorder or complex regional pain syndrome.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> .> For people who have to live a difficult life, when they live their life
> >>>>>> .> for God, they may still have to endure the physical pain in their body,
> >>>>>> .> but they don't have to endure any mental suffering in their mind.
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>> .> > There are few things that cause "suffering in their mind" more than
> >>> .> > perpetual severe pain. Why did you say something so incredibly stupid?
> >>>
> >>> .> Not really, the suffering in people's mind can only exist when there is
> >>> .> an image of self in their mind which dominates their life. When a person
> >>> .> stops living for that empty image and starts living for the spirit of
> >>> .> God within him/her, suffering in their mind will be taken away by God.
> >>> .> There will be no self pity or the feeling of personal failure and injury
> >>> .> anymore. There will only be a simple acceptance of life and the desire
> >>> .> to make the best of it whenever and however possible.
> >>>
> >>> And the suffering of the body continues.
> >>
> >
> > .>. > I would suggest that it would take nothing more elaborate
> > .> > than a thumbscrew to cause you to reconsider your insouciant
> > .> > attitude towards physical pain.
> >
> > .> I believe you, but that does not mean I have to add suffering on top of
> > .> the physical pain to make my life miserable. You can make my body
> > .> miserable, but I'm not going to help you to make my life miserable too.
> >


.> > I thought you were interested in the truth.  A thumbscrew would
.> > provide you with a simple, economical, and elegant way for
.> > you to test for yourself whether your statement is correct.
 
.> Not really. A thumbscrew would only test my devotion to God to let me 
.> know exactly how far I can go. Anything other than that is pointless.

Hookay.  Me, I'm not a fan of the "It's true because I 
know it's true" school of thought.  Insufficiently arrogant,
I suppose.  I like to see my current take on things being
tested, and hopefully validated, by non-me things.


Seth

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#1964595

On 2015-08-20 03:26 AM, nature bats last wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 19, 2015 at 6:26:25 AM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
>> On 2015-08-19 09:13 AM, nature bats last wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 5:17:10 PM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
>>>> On 2015-08-18 11:34 PM, nature bats last wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 11:30:15 PM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
>>>>>> On 2015-08-18 07:12 AM, Jeanne Douglas wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <b0ab36ab-3f79-4496-b325-9a9ae530f140@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>>>      nature bats last <seqklogw@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 10:49:44 AM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2015-08-17 11:56 PM, nature bats last wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, August 16, 2015 at 8:11:51 PM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2015-08-16 11:55 PM, John Ritson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In article <mqpvas$r80$1@dont-email.me>, niunian <niunian@ymail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> writes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2015-08-16 01:33 PM, William December Starr wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In article <mqke7b$vf2$10@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> niunian <niunian@ymail.com> said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> William December Starr wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> niunian <niunian@ymail.com> said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Living itself is a purpose. And it is a great purpose. It is to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worship the God of living.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well I guess if you're going to anthropomorphize -- excuse me,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deus-morphize -- _any_ concept, then yes, any concept is a God of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something.  That gets us rather deep into "so what?" territory
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, if we can agree on the fact of life which shows everybody
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including the atheists has a god of their own on a personal level,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We can't.  You use the words 'god' and 'God' in ways that are so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-standard that I doubt you make sense to anyone but yourself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That only because you have never thought of God/god on a personal
>>>>>>>>>>>>> level.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> God is not out there in the sky. God is within you who is the center
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> your life. You actually live your life for God even when you call
>>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself an atheist.
>>>>>>>>>>>> So (according to you) everybody lives their life for God.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> When you don't live your life for the God within
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you, you always suffer in life.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ..> > But since (according to you) everybody lives their life for God,
>>>>>>>>>> nobody
>>>>>>>>>> ..> > 'always suffers'.
>>>>>>>>>> ..> > You are just talking rubbish.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ..> No. If we can always live our lives for God, we would never suffer.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> .> > Try that one out on someone with reflex sympathetic dystrophy
>>>>>>>> .> > or paroxysmal extreme pain disorder or complex regional pain syndrome.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> .> For people who have to live a difficult life, when they live their life
>>>>>>>> .> for God, they may still have to endure the physical pain in their body,
>>>>>>>> .> but they don't have to endure any mental suffering in their mind.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> .> > There are few things that cause "suffering in their mind" more than
>>>>> .> > perpetual severe pain. Why did you say something so incredibly stupid?
>>>>>
>>>>> .> Not really, the suffering in people's mind can only exist when there is
>>>>> .> an image of self in their mind which dominates their life. When a person
>>>>> .> stops living for that empty image and starts living for the spirit of
>>>>> .> God within him/her, suffering in their mind will be taken away by God.
>>>>> .> There will be no self pity or the feeling of personal failure and injury
>>>>> .> anymore. There will only be a simple acceptance of life and the desire
>>>>> .> to make the best of it whenever and however possible.
>>>>>
>>>>> And the suffering of the body continues.
>>>>
>>>
>>> .>. > I would suggest that it would take nothing more elaborate
>>> .> > than a thumbscrew to cause you to reconsider your insouciant
>>> .> > attitude towards physical pain.
>>>
>>> .> I believe you, but that does not mean I have to add suffering on top of
>>> .> the physical pain to make my life miserable. You can make my body
>>> .> miserable, but I'm not going to help you to make my life miserable too.
>>>
>
>
> .> > I thought you were interested in the truth.  A thumbscrew would
> .> > provide you with a simple, economical, and elegant way for
> .> > you to test for yourself whether your statement is correct.
>
> .> Not really. A thumbscrew would only test my devotion to God to let me
> .> know exactly how far I can go. Anything other than that is pointless.
>
> Hookay.  Me, I'm not a fan of the "It's true because I
> know it's true" school of thought.  Insufficiently arrogant,
> I suppose.  I like to see my current take on things being
> tested, and hopefully validated, by non-me things.

What exactly does that mean? I think it's rather a common knowledge that 
it takes more than breaking a few bones in order to break a man's 
spirit. No reliable information can be obtained through torture. Do you 
disagree?

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#1964995

On Wednesday, August 19, 2015 at 8:16:34 PM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
> On 2015-08-20 03:26 AM, nature bats last wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 19, 2015 at 6:26:25 AM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
> >> On 2015-08-19 09:13 AM, nature bats last wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 5:17:10 PM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
> >>>> On 2015-08-18 11:34 PM, nature bats last wrote:
> >>>>> On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 11:30:15 PM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
> >>>>>> On 2015-08-18 07:12 AM, Jeanne Douglas wrote:
> >>>>>>> In article <b0ab36ab-3f79-4496-b325-9a9ae530f140@googlegroups.com>,
> >>>>>>>      nature bats last <seqklogw@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 10:49:44 AM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On 2015-08-17 11:56 PM, nature bats last wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, August 16, 2015 at 8:11:51 PM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 2015-08-16 11:55 PM, John Ritson wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> In article <mqpvas$r80$1@dont-email.me>, niunian <niunian@ymail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> writes
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2015-08-16 01:33 PM, William December Starr wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In article <mqke7b$vf2$10@dont-email.me>,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> niunian <niunian@ymail.com> said:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> William December Starr wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> niunian <niunian@ymail.com> said:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Living itself is a purpose. And it is a great purpose. It is to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worship the God of living.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well I guess if you're going to anthropomorphize -- excuse me,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deus-morphize -- _any_ concept, then yes, any concept is a God of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something.  That gets us rather deep into "so what?" territory
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, if we can agree on the fact of life which shows everybody
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including the atheists has a god of their own on a personal level,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> We can't.  You use the words 'god' and 'God' in ways that are so
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-standard that I doubt you make sense to anyone but yourself.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> That only because you have never thought of God/god on a personal
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> level.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> God is not out there in the sky. God is within you who is the center
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> your life. You actually live your life for God even when you call
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself an atheist.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> So (according to you) everybody lives their life for God.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> When you don't live your life for the God within
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> you, you always suffer in life.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> ..> > But since (according to you) everybody lives their life for God,
> >>>>>>>>>> nobody
> >>>>>>>>>> ..> > 'always suffers'.
> >>>>>>>>>> ..> > You are just talking rubbish.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> ..> No. If we can always live our lives for God, we would never suffer.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> .> > Try that one out on someone with reflex sympathetic dystrophy
> >>>>>>>> .> > or paroxysmal extreme pain disorder or complex regional pain syndrome.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> .> For people who have to live a difficult life, when they live their life
> >>>>>>>> .> for God, they may still have to endure the physical pain in their body,
> >>>>>>>> .> but they don't have to endure any mental suffering in their mind.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> .> > There are few things that cause "suffering in their mind" more than
> >>>>> .> > perpetual severe pain. Why did you say something so incredibly stupid?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> .> Not really, the suffering in people's mind can only exist when there is
> >>>>> .> an image of self in their mind which dominates their life. When a person
> >>>>> .> stops living for that empty image and starts living for the spirit of
> >>>>> .> God within him/her, suffering in their mind will be taken away by God.
> >>>>> .> There will be no self pity or the feeling of personal failure and injury
> >>>>> .> anymore. There will only be a simple acceptance of life and the desire
> >>>>> .> to make the best of it whenever and however possible.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And the suffering of the body continues.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> .>. > I would suggest that it would take nothing more elaborate
> >>> .> > than a thumbscrew to cause you to reconsider your insouciant
> >>> .> > attitude towards physical pain.
> >>>
> >>> .> I believe you, but that does not mean I have to add suffering on top of
> >>> .> the physical pain to make my life miserable. You can make my body
> >>> .> miserable, but I'm not going to help you to make my life miserable too.
> >>>
> >
> >
> > .> > I thought you were interested in the truth.  A thumbscrew would
> > .> > provide you with a simple, economical, and elegant way for
> > .> > you to test for yourself whether your statement is correct.
> >
> > .> Not really. A thumbscrew would only test my devotion to God to let me
> > .> know exactly how far I can go. Anything other than that is pointless.
> >
> > Hookay.  Me, I'm not a fan of the "It's true because I
> > know it's true" school of thought.  Insufficiently arrogant,
> > I suppose.  I like to see my current take on things being
> > tested, and hopefully validated, by non-me things.
> 

.> What exactly does that mean? I think it's rather a common knowledge that 
.> it takes more than breaking a few bones in order to break a man's 
.> spirit. No reliable information can be obtained through torture. Do you 
.> disagree?

Not at all.  But I do disagree with your insoucient
hand-waving regarding the suffering of the mere
physical body as not creating  "suffering of
the mind".

It's a false duality.


Seth

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#1965600

On 20/08/2015 17:31, nature bats last wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 19, 2015 at 8:16:34 PM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
>> On 2015-08-20 03:26 AM, nature bats last wrote:


>>>
>>> Hookay.  Me, I'm not a fan of the "It's true because I
>>> know it's true" school of thought.  Insufficiently arrogant,
>>> I suppose.  I like to see my current take on things being
>>> tested, and hopefully validated, by non-me things.
>>
>
> .> What exactly does that mean? I think it's rather a common knowledge that
> .> it takes more than breaking a few bones in order to break a man's
> .> spirit. No reliable information can be obtained through torture. Do you
> .> disagree?
>
> Not at all.  But I do disagree with your insoucient
> hand-waving regarding the suffering of the mere
> physical body as not creating  "suffering of
> the mind".
>
> It's a false duality.
>

It neglects the close and mutual relationship between mind and body. 
Just as the mind can affect the body (think placebo effect), the body 
can affect the mind.  A suffering body can have all sorts of dramatic 
effects on the mind.  Indeed, in shamanistic religions, suffering of the 
body is a common pathway to creating visions and connections to the 
divine.

For that matter, this process is also known in Christianity.  Self-harm 
such as flagellation is a known and approved route for Christians to 
achieve a glimpse of their deity.

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#1965674

On 2015-08-21 04:59 PM, Alex W. wrote:
> On 20/08/2015 17:31, nature bats last wrote:
>> On Wednesday, August 19, 2015 at 8:16:34 PM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
>>> On 2015-08-20 03:26 AM, nature bats last wrote:
>
>
>>>>
>>>> Hookay.  Me, I'm not a fan of the "It's true because I
>>>> know it's true" school of thought.  Insufficiently arrogant,
>>>> I suppose.  I like to see my current take on things being
>>>> tested, and hopefully validated, by non-me things.
>>>
>>
>> .> What exactly does that mean? I think it's rather a common knowledge
>> that
>> .> it takes more than breaking a few bones in order to break a man's
>> .> spirit. No reliable information can be obtained through torture. Do
>> you
>> .> disagree?
>>
>> Not at all.  But I do disagree with your insoucient
>> hand-waving regarding the suffering of the mere
>> physical body as not creating  "suffering of
>> the mind".
>>
>> It's a false duality.

I don't deny there is suffering, but one's life doesn't have to be 
affected by such suffering. When one lives one's life for God instead of 
the image of self in one's mind, all suffering would be taken away by 
God. As the result, the suffering of the body would only be considered 
as mere pain of the body. It would not have the power to affect a 
person's life.

>>
>
> It neglects the close and mutual relationship between mind and body.
> Just as the mind can affect the body (think placebo effect), the body
> can affect the mind.  A suffering body can have all sorts of dramatic
> effects on the mind.  Indeed, in shamanistic religions, suffering of the
> body is a common pathway to creating visions and connections to the divine.
>
> For that matter, this process is also known in Christianity.  Self-harm
> such as flagellation is a known and approved route for Christians to
> achieve a glimpse of their deity.

It's a struggle between mind and body, but the victory only belongs to 
God. To overcome suffering, one must rely on God.

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#1966202

On 08/21/2015 06:05 AM, niunian wrote:
> On 2015-08-21 04:59 PM, Alex W. wrote:
>> For that matter, this process is also known in Christianity.  Self-harm
>> such as flagellation is a known and approved route for Christians to
>> achieve a glimpse of their deity.
>
> It's a struggle between mind and body, but the victory only belongs to
> God. To overcome suffering, one must rely on God.

If they they think self-flagellation is suffering, they should hand the 
whip to someone who can't feel it and learn what suffering really is.

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#1966377

On 22/08/2015 02:44, talishi wrote:
> On 08/21/2015 06:05 AM, niunian wrote:
>> On 2015-08-21 04:59 PM, Alex W. wrote:
>>> For that matter, this process is also known in Christianity.  Self-harm
>>> such as flagellation is a known and approved route for Christians to
>>> achieve a glimpse of their deity.
>>
>> It's a struggle between mind and body, but the victory only belongs to
>> God. To overcome suffering, one must rely on God.
>
> If they they think self-flagellation is suffering, they should hand the
> whip to someone who can't feel it and learn what suffering really is.

On the downside of your proposal, such a person would likely be a small 
child who would not have the muscle or mass to properly effectuate a 
good whipping.

The whole point of effective torture is that the torturer knows 
precisely the pain he causes....

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#1966532

On 08/22/2015 12:50 AM, Alex W. wrote:
> On 22/08/2015 02:44, talishi wrote:
>> On 08/21/2015 06:05 AM, niunian wrote:
>>> On 2015-08-21 04:59 PM, Alex W. wrote:
>>>> For that matter, this process is also known in Christianity.  Self-harm
>>>> such as flagellation is a known and approved route for Christians to
>>>> achieve a glimpse of their deity.
>>>
>>> It's a struggle between mind and body, but the victory only belongs to
>>> God. To overcome suffering, one must rely on God.
>>
>> If they they think self-flagellation is suffering, they should hand the
>> whip to someone who can't feel it and learn what suffering really is.
>
> On the downside of your proposal, such a person would likely be a small
> child who would not have the muscle or mass to properly effectuate a
> good whipping.

I think you misunderstood me, my point is that if you are fucking 
yourself up, there's a level of pain that will make you stop, but if 
someone else is doing it, that level will be exceeded.

-- 
A toast to the kisses you've snatched and vice-versa

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#1966391

On 2015-08-22 09:44 AM, talishi wrote:
> On 08/21/2015 06:05 AM, niunian wrote:
>> On 2015-08-21 04:59 PM, Alex W. wrote:
>>> For that matter, this process is also known in Christianity.  Self-harm
>>> such as flagellation is a known and approved route for Christians to
>>> achieve a glimpse of their deity.
>>
>> It's a struggle between mind and body, but the victory only belongs to
>> God. To overcome suffering, one must rely on God.
>
> If they they think self-flagellation is suffering, they should hand the
> whip to someone who can't feel it and learn what suffering really is.

I don't understand that Christian practice either. To me, self-torture 
is never a way to understand the truth of God. The world has more than 
enough suffering to crush a human soul. There is no need to play hero 
and the real hero who defeats suffering is always God alone.

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#1963962

On 19/08/2015 01:04, niunian wrote:
> On 2015-08-18 11:34 PM, nature bats last wrote:
>> On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 11:30:15 PM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
>>> On 2015-08-18 07:12 AM, Jeanne Douglas wrote:
>>>> In article <b0ab36ab-3f79-4496-b325-9a9ae530f140@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>    nature bats last <seqklogw@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 10:49:44 AM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
>>>>>> On 2015-08-17 11:56 PM, nature bats last wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sunday, August 16, 2015 at 8:11:51 PM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2015-08-16 11:55 PM, John Ritson wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In article <mqpvas$r80$1@dont-email.me>, niunian
>>>>>>>>> <niunian@ymail.com>
>>>>>>>>> writes
>>>>>>>>>> On 2015-08-16 01:33 PM, William December Starr wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In article <mqke7b$vf2$10@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>>>>>> niunian <niunian@ymail.com> said:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> William December Starr wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> niunian <niunian@ymail.com> said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Living itself is a purpose. And it is a great purpose. It
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worship the God of living.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well I guess if you're going to anthropomorphize -- excuse me,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> deus-morphize -- _any_ concept, then yes, any concept is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> God of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> something.  That gets us rather deep into "so what?" territory
>>>>>>>>>>>>> though.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, if we can agree on the fact of life which shows everybody
>>>>>>>>>>>> including the atheists has a god of their own on a personal
>>>>>>>>>>>> level,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We can't.  You use the words 'god' and 'God' in ways that are so
>>>>>>>>>>> non-standard that I doubt you make sense to anyone but yourself.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That only because you have never thought of God/god on a personal
>>>>>>>>>> level.
>>>>>>>>>> God is not out there in the sky. God is within you who is the
>>>>>>>>>> center
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> your life. You actually live your life for God even when you call
>>>>>>>>>> yourself an atheist.
>>>>>>>>> So (according to you) everybody lives their life for God.
>>>>>>>>>> When you don't live your life for the God within
>>>>>>>>>> you, you always suffer in life.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ..> > But since (according to you) everybody lives their life for
>>>>>>> God,
>>>>>>> nobody
>>>>>>> ..> > 'always suffers'.
>>>>>>> ..> > You are just talking rubbish.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ..> No. If we can always live our lives for God, we would never
>>>>>>> suffer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> .> > Try that one out on someone with reflex sympathetic dystrophy
>>>>> .> > or paroxysmal extreme pain disorder or complex regional pain
>>>>> syndrome.
>>>>>
>>>>> .> For people who have to live a difficult life, when they live
>>>>> their life
>>>>> .> for God, they may still have to endure the physical pain in
>>>>> their body,
>>>>> .> but they don't have to endure any mental suffering in their mind.
>>>>
>>
>> .> > There are few things that cause "suffering in their mind" more than
>> .> > perpetual severe pain. Why did you say something so incredibly
>> stupid?
>>
>> .> Not really, the suffering in people's mind can only exist when
>> there is
>> .> an image of self in their mind which dominates their life. When a
>> person
>> .> stops living for that empty image and starts living for the spirit of
>> .> God within him/her, suffering in their mind will be taken away by God.
>> .> There will be no self pity or the feeling of personal failure and
>> injury
>> .> anymore. There will only be a simple acceptance of life and the desire
>> .> to make the best of it whenever and however possible.
>>
>> And the suffering of the body continues.
>>
>> I would suggest that it would take nothing more elaborate
>> than a thumbscrew to cause you to reconsider your insouciant
>> attitude towards physical pain.
>
> I believe you, but that does not mean I have to add suffering on top of
> the physical pain to make my life miserable. You can make my body
> miserable, but I'm not going to help you to make my life miserable too.
>

Get married.
Find out all about a miserable life.

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#1964074

On 2015-08-19 05:07 PM, Alex W. wrote:
> On 19/08/2015 01:04, niunian wrote:
>> On 2015-08-18 11:34 PM, nature bats last wrote:
>>> On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 11:30:15 PM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
>>>> On 2015-08-18 07:12 AM, Jeanne Douglas wrote:
>>>>> In article <b0ab36ab-3f79-4496-b325-9a9ae530f140@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>    nature bats last <seqklogw@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 10:49:44 AM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2015-08-17 11:56 PM, nature bats last wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sunday, August 16, 2015 at 8:11:51 PM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2015-08-16 11:55 PM, John Ritson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In article <mqpvas$r80$1@dont-email.me>, niunian
>>>>>>>>>> <niunian@ymail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> writes
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2015-08-16 01:33 PM, William December Starr wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In article <mqke7b$vf2$10@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>>>>>>> niunian <niunian@ymail.com> said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> William December Starr wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> niunian <niunian@ymail.com> said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Living itself is a purpose. And it is a great purpose. It
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worship the God of living.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well I guess if you're going to anthropomorphize -- excuse
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deus-morphize -- _any_ concept, then yes, any concept is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something.  That gets us rather deep into "so what?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> territory
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, if we can agree on the fact of life which shows
>>>>>>>>>>>>> everybody
>>>>>>>>>>>>> including the atheists has a god of their own on a personal
>>>>>>>>>>>>> level,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> We can't.  You use the words 'god' and 'God' in ways that
>>>>>>>>>>>> are so
>>>>>>>>>>>> non-standard that I doubt you make sense to anyone but
>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That only because you have never thought of God/god on a
>>>>>>>>>>> personal
>>>>>>>>>>> level.
>>>>>>>>>>> God is not out there in the sky. God is within you who is the
>>>>>>>>>>> center
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> your life. You actually live your life for God even when you
>>>>>>>>>>> call
>>>>>>>>>>> yourself an atheist.
>>>>>>>>>> So (according to you) everybody lives their life for God.
>>>>>>>>>>> When you don't live your life for the God within
>>>>>>>>>>> you, you always suffer in life.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ..> > But since (according to you) everybody lives their life for
>>>>>>>> God,
>>>>>>>> nobody
>>>>>>>> ..> > 'always suffers'.
>>>>>>>> ..> > You are just talking rubbish.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ..> No. If we can always live our lives for God, we would never
>>>>>>>> suffer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> .> > Try that one out on someone with reflex sympathetic dystrophy
>>>>>> .> > or paroxysmal extreme pain disorder or complex regional pain
>>>>>> syndrome.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> .> For people who have to live a difficult life, when they live
>>>>>> their life
>>>>>> .> for God, they may still have to endure the physical pain in
>>>>>> their body,
>>>>>> .> but they don't have to endure any mental suffering in their mind.
>>>>>
>>>
>>> .> > There are few things that cause "suffering in their mind" more than
>>> .> > perpetual severe pain. Why did you say something so incredibly
>>> stupid?
>>>
>>> .> Not really, the suffering in people's mind can only exist when
>>> there is
>>> .> an image of self in their mind which dominates their life. When a
>>> person
>>> .> stops living for that empty image and starts living for the spirit of
>>> .> God within him/her, suffering in their mind will be taken away by
>>> God.
>>> .> There will be no self pity or the feeling of personal failure and
>>> injury
>>> .> anymore. There will only be a simple acceptance of life and the
>>> desire
>>> .> to make the best of it whenever and however possible.
>>>
>>> And the suffering of the body continues.
>>>
>>> I would suggest that it would take nothing more elaborate
>>> than a thumbscrew to cause you to reconsider your insouciant
>>> attitude towards physical pain.
>>
>> I believe you, but that does not mean I have to add suffering on top of
>> the physical pain to make my life miserable. You can make my body
>> miserable, but I'm not going to help you to make my life miserable too.
>>
>
> Get married.
> Find out all about a miserable life.

That would be a miserable marriage instead of a miserable life. If one 
is devoted to follow the God from the within, one can have a miserable 
marriage without having a miserable life too.

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#1964317

On Wed, 19 Aug 2015 10:07:03 +0100, "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 19/08/2015 01:04, niunian wrote:
>> On 2015-08-18 11:34 PM, nature bats last wrote:
>>> On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 11:30:15 PM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
>>>> On 2015-08-18 07:12 AM, Jeanne Douglas wrote:
>>>>> In article <b0ab36ab-3f79-4496-b325-9a9ae530f140@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>    nature bats last <seqklogw@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 10:49:44 AM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2015-08-17 11:56 PM, nature bats last wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sunday, August 16, 2015 at 8:11:51 PM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2015-08-16 11:55 PM, John Ritson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In article <mqpvas$r80$1@dont-email.me>, niunian
>>>>>>>>>> <niunian@ymail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> writes
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2015-08-16 01:33 PM, William December Starr wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In article <mqke7b$vf2$10@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>>>>>>> niunian <niunian@ymail.com> said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> William December Starr wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> niunian <niunian@ymail.com> said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Living itself is a purpose. And it is a great purpose. It
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worship the God of living.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well I guess if you're going to anthropomorphize -- excuse me,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deus-morphize -- _any_ concept, then yes, any concept is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something.  That gets us rather deep into "so what?" territory
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, if we can agree on the fact of life which shows everybody
>>>>>>>>>>>>> including the atheists has a god of their own on a personal
>>>>>>>>>>>>> level,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> We can't.  You use the words 'god' and 'God' in ways that are so
>>>>>>>>>>>> non-standard that I doubt you make sense to anyone but yourself.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That only because you have never thought of God/god on a personal
>>>>>>>>>>> level.
>>>>>>>>>>> God is not out there in the sky. God is within you who is the
>>>>>>>>>>> center
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> your life. You actually live your life for God even when you call
>>>>>>>>>>> yourself an atheist.
>>>>>>>>>> So (according to you) everybody lives their life for God.
>>>>>>>>>>> When you don't live your life for the God within
>>>>>>>>>>> you, you always suffer in life.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ..> > But since (according to you) everybody lives their life for
>>>>>>>> God,
>>>>>>>> nobody
>>>>>>>> ..> > 'always suffers'.
>>>>>>>> ..> > You are just talking rubbish.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ..> No. If we can always live our lives for God, we would never
>>>>>>>> suffer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> .> > Try that one out on someone with reflex sympathetic dystrophy
>>>>>> .> > or paroxysmal extreme pain disorder or complex regional pain
>>>>>> syndrome.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> .> For people who have to live a difficult life, when they live
>>>>>> their life
>>>>>> .> for God, they may still have to endure the physical pain in
>>>>>> their body,
>>>>>> .> but they don't have to endure any mental suffering in their mind.
>>>>>
>>>
>>> .> > There are few things that cause "suffering in their mind" more than
>>> .> > perpetual severe pain. Why did you say something so incredibly
>>> stupid?
>>>
>>> .> Not really, the suffering in people's mind can only exist when
>>> there is
>>> .> an image of self in their mind which dominates their life. When a
>>> person
>>> .> stops living for that empty image and starts living for the spirit of
>>> .> God within him/her, suffering in their mind will be taken away by God.
>>> .> There will be no self pity or the feeling of personal failure and
>>> injury
>>> .> anymore. There will only be a simple acceptance of life and the desire
>>> .> to make the best of it whenever and however possible.
>>>
>>> And the suffering of the body continues.
>>>
>>> I would suggest that it would take nothing more elaborate
>>> than a thumbscrew to cause you to reconsider your insouciant
>>> attitude towards physical pain.
>>
>> I believe you, but that does not mean I have to add suffering on top of
>> the physical pain to make my life miserable. You can make my body
>> miserable, but I'm not going to help you to make my life miserable too.
>>
>
>Get married.
>Find out all about a miserable life.
>

Oi!

I like being married. I'm more civilized than I would be otherwise;
I've learned more social graces, discovered more things I wouldn't
have ordinarily considered, and I'm certainly going to live longer
than I would have if I were single.

I'll wager it's your consumption of things like haggis and headcheese
that render sane women out of bounds for you, ya mad bastid.

-- 
Cheers,
Dreamer
AA 2306

"If God listened to the prayers of men, all men would quickly have
perished: for they are forever praying for evil against one another."

Epicurus

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#1964830

On 19/08/2015 21:57, Dreamer In Colore wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Aug 2015 10:07:03 +0100, "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> On 19/08/2015 01:04, niunian wrote:
>>> On 2015-08-18 11:34 PM, nature bats last wrote:
>>>> On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 11:30:15 PM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
>>>>> On 2015-08-18 07:12 AM, Jeanne Douglas wrote:
>>>>>> In article <b0ab36ab-3f79-4496-b325-9a9ae530f140@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>>     nature bats last <seqklogw@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 10:49:44 AM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2015-08-17 11:56 PM, nature bats last wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, August 16, 2015 at 8:11:51 PM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2015-08-16 11:55 PM, John Ritson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In article <mqpvas$r80$1@dont-email.me>, niunian
>>>>>>>>>>> <niunian@ymail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> writes
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2015-08-16 01:33 PM, William December Starr wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In article <mqke7b$vf2$10@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> niunian <niunian@ymail.com> said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> William December Starr wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> niunian <niunian@ymail.com> said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Living itself is a purpose. And it is a great purpose. It
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worship the God of living.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well I guess if you're going to anthropomorphize -- excuse me,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deus-morphize -- _any_ concept, then yes, any concept is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something.  That gets us rather deep into "so what?" territory
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, if we can agree on the fact of life which shows everybody
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including the atheists has a god of their own on a personal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> We can't.  You use the words 'god' and 'God' in ways that are so
>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-standard that I doubt you make sense to anyone but yourself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That only because you have never thought of God/god on a personal
>>>>>>>>>>>> level.
>>>>>>>>>>>> God is not out there in the sky. God is within you who is the
>>>>>>>>>>>> center
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> your life. You actually live your life for God even when you call
>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself an atheist.
>>>>>>>>>>> So (according to you) everybody lives their life for God.
>>>>>>>>>>>> When you don't live your life for the God within
>>>>>>>>>>>> you, you always suffer in life.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ..> > But since (according to you) everybody lives their life for
>>>>>>>>> God,
>>>>>>>>> nobody
>>>>>>>>> ..> > 'always suffers'.
>>>>>>>>> ..> > You are just talking rubbish.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ..> No. If we can always live our lives for God, we would never
>>>>>>>>> suffer.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> .> > Try that one out on someone with reflex sympathetic dystrophy
>>>>>>> .> > or paroxysmal extreme pain disorder or complex regional pain
>>>>>>> syndrome.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> .> For people who have to live a difficult life, when they live
>>>>>>> their life
>>>>>>> .> for God, they may still have to endure the physical pain in
>>>>>>> their body,
>>>>>>> .> but they don't have to endure any mental suffering in their mind.
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> .> > There are few things that cause "suffering in their mind" more than
>>>> .> > perpetual severe pain. Why did you say something so incredibly
>>>> stupid?
>>>>
>>>> .> Not really, the suffering in people's mind can only exist when
>>>> there is
>>>> .> an image of self in their mind which dominates their life. When a
>>>> person
>>>> .> stops living for that empty image and starts living for the spirit of
>>>> .> God within him/her, suffering in their mind will be taken away by God.
>>>> .> There will be no self pity or the feeling of personal failure and
>>>> injury
>>>> .> anymore. There will only be a simple acceptance of life and the desire
>>>> .> to make the best of it whenever and however possible.
>>>>
>>>> And the suffering of the body continues.
>>>>
>>>> I would suggest that it would take nothing more elaborate
>>>> than a thumbscrew to cause you to reconsider your insouciant
>>>> attitude towards physical pain.
>>>
>>> I believe you, but that does not mean I have to add suffering on top of
>>> the physical pain to make my life miserable. You can make my body
>>> miserable, but I'm not going to help you to make my life miserable too.
>>>
>>
>> Get married.
>> Find out all about a miserable life.
>>
>
> Oi!
>
> I like being married. I'm more civilized than I would be otherwise;
> I've learned more social graces, discovered more things I wouldn't
> have ordinarily considered, and I'm certainly going to live longer
> than I would have if I were single.

To translate: you've been broken to the bridle.
:-P


>
> I'll wager it's your consumption of things like haggis and headcheese
> that render sane women out of bounds for you, ya mad bastid.
>

Whyever would I want a women in the first place who does not appreciate 
the finer things in life?

Might as well get hooked up with a vegetarian!

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#1963161

On 2015-08-18 02:02 AM, nature bats last wrote:
> On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 10:49:44 AM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
>> On 2015-08-17 11:56 PM, nature bats last wrote:
>>> On Sunday, August 16, 2015 at 8:11:51 PM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
>>>> On 2015-08-16 11:55 PM, John Ritson wrote:
>>>>> In article <mqpvas$r80$1@dont-email.me>, niunian <niunian@ymail.com>
>>>>> writes
>>>>>> On 2015-08-16 01:33 PM, William December Starr wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <mqke7b$vf2$10@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>> niunian <niunian@ymail.com> said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> William December Starr wrote:
>>>>>>>>> niunian <niunian@ymail.com> said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Living itself is a purpose. And it is a great purpose. It is to
>>>>>>>>>> worship the God of living.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well I guess if you're going to anthropomorphize -- excuse me,
>>>>>>>>> deus-morphize -- _any_ concept, then yes, any concept is a God of
>>>>>>>>> something.  That gets us rather deep into "so what?" territory though.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, if we can agree on the fact of life which shows everybody
>>>>>>>> including the atheists has a god of their own on a personal level,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We can't.  You use the words 'god' and 'God' in ways that are so
>>>>>>> non-standard that I doubt you make sense to anyone but yourself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That only because you have never thought of God/god on a personal level.
>>>>>> God is not out there in the sky. God is within you who is the center of
>>>>>> your life. You actually live your life for God even when you call
>>>>>> yourself an atheist.
>>>>> So (according to you) everybody lives their life for God.
>>>>>> When you don't live your life for the God within
>>>>>> you, you always suffer in life.
>>>>
>>>
>>> ..> > But since (according to you) everybody lives their life for God, nobody
>>> ..> > 'always suffers'.
>>> ..> > You are just talking rubbish.
>>>
>>>
>>> ..> No. If we can always live our lives for God, we would never suffer.
>>>
>
>
> .> > Try that one out on someone with reflex sympathetic dystrophy
> .> > or paroxysmal extreme pain disorder or complex regional pain syndrome.
>
> .> For people who have to live a difficult life, when they live their life
> .> for God, they may still have to endure the physical pain in their body,
> .> but they don't have to endure any mental suffering in their mind. There
> .> isn't any to begin with. In fact, they may be given the extra strength
> .> to help them to endure the extra physical pain so that they can overcome
> .> their difficulty. To them, failure will never discourage them, each time
> .> they fail, it will only make them coming back to start a more fierce
> .> struggle. It's all because they live their lives for God, they have
> ,> nothing to worry about.
>
> Are you speaking from personal experience with extreme
> and omnipresent pain?

Not really. Nothing even close to your imaginations.

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#1963335

On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 11:30:16 PM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
> On 2015-08-18 02:02 AM, nature bats last wrote:
> > On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 10:49:44 AM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
> >> On 2015-08-17 11:56 PM, nature bats last wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, August 16, 2015 at 8:11:51 PM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
> >>>> On 2015-08-16 11:55 PM, John Ritson wrote:
> >>>>> In article <mqpvas$r80$1@dont-email.me>, niunian <niunian@ymail.com>
> >>>>> writes
> >>>>>> On 2015-08-16 01:33 PM, William December Starr wrote:
> >>>>>>> In article <mqke7b$vf2$10@dont-email.me>,
> >>>>>>> niunian <niunian@ymail.com> said:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> William December Starr wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> niunian <niunian@ymail.com> said:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Living itself is a purpose. And it is a great purpose. It is to
> >>>>>>>>>> worship the God of living.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Well I guess if you're going to anthropomorphize -- excuse me,
> >>>>>>>>> deus-morphize -- _any_ concept, then yes, any concept is a God of
> >>>>>>>>> something.  That gets us rather deep into "so what?" territory though.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Well, if we can agree on the fact of life which shows everybody
> >>>>>>>> including the atheists has a god of their own on a personal level,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> We can't.  You use the words 'god' and 'God' in ways that are so
> >>>>>>> non-standard that I doubt you make sense to anyone but yourself.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> That only because you have never thought of God/god on a personal level.
> >>>>>> God is not out there in the sky. God is within you who is the center of
> >>>>>> your life. You actually live your life for God even when you call
> >>>>>> yourself an atheist.
> >>>>> So (according to you) everybody lives their life for God.
> >>>>>> When you don't live your life for the God within
> >>>>>> you, you always suffer in life.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> ..> > But since (according to you) everybody lives their life for God, nobody
> >>> ..> > 'always suffers'.
> >>> ..> > You are just talking rubbish.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ..> No. If we can always live our lives for God, we would never suffer.
> >>>
> >
> >
> > .> > Try that one out on someone with reflex sympathetic dystrophy
> > .> > or paroxysmal extreme pain disorder or complex regional pain syndrome.
> >
> > .> For people who have to live a difficult life, when they live their life
> > .> for God, they may still have to endure the physical pain in their body,
> > .> but they don't have to endure any mental suffering in their mind. There
> > .> isn't any to begin with. In fact, they may be given the extra strength
> > .> to help them to endure the extra physical pain so that they can overcome
> > .> their difficulty. To them, failure will never discourage them, each time
> > .> they fail, it will only make them coming back to start a more fierce
> > .> struggle. It's all because they live their lives for God, they have
> > ,> nothing to worry about.
> >


.> > Are you speaking from personal experience with extreme
.> > and omnipresent pain?
 
.> Not really. 

And yet you feel qualified to tell us what the
inner lives of  those afflicted with intractable
pain is like.  


You might want to reflect on that.



> Nothing even close to your imaginations.

Thankfully, I cannot begin to imagine what it
must be like for those with the very real
syndromes I listed.


Seth

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#1963710

On 2015-08-18 11:25 PM, nature bats last wrote:
> On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 11:30:16 PM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
>> On 2015-08-18 02:02 AM, nature bats last wrote:
>>> On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 10:49:44 AM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
>>>> On 2015-08-17 11:56 PM, nature bats last wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, August 16, 2015 at 8:11:51 PM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
>>>>>> On 2015-08-16 11:55 PM, John Ritson wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <mqpvas$r80$1@dont-email.me>, niunian <niunian@ymail.com>
>>>>>>> writes
>>>>>>>> On 2015-08-16 01:33 PM, William December Starr wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In article <mqke7b$vf2$10@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>>>> niunian <niunian@ymail.com> said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> William December Starr wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> niunian <niunian@ymail.com> said:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Living itself is a purpose. And it is a great purpose. It is to
>>>>>>>>>>>> worship the God of living.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Well I guess if you're going to anthropomorphize -- excuse me,
>>>>>>>>>>> deus-morphize -- _any_ concept, then yes, any concept is a God of
>>>>>>>>>>> something.  That gets us rather deep into "so what?" territory though.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well, if we can agree on the fact of life which shows everybody
>>>>>>>>>> including the atheists has a god of their own on a personal level,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We can't.  You use the words 'god' and 'God' in ways that are so
>>>>>>>>> non-standard that I doubt you make sense to anyone but yourself.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That only because you have never thought of God/god on a personal level.
>>>>>>>> God is not out there in the sky. God is within you who is the center of
>>>>>>>> your life. You actually live your life for God even when you call
>>>>>>>> yourself an atheist.
>>>>>>> So (according to you) everybody lives their life for God.
>>>>>>>> When you don't live your life for the God within
>>>>>>>> you, you always suffer in life.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ..> > But since (according to you) everybody lives their life for God, nobody
>>>>> ..> > 'always suffers'.
>>>>> ..> > You are just talking rubbish.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ..> No. If we can always live our lives for God, we would never suffer.
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> .> > Try that one out on someone with reflex sympathetic dystrophy
>>> .> > or paroxysmal extreme pain disorder or complex regional pain syndrome.
>>>
>>> .> For people who have to live a difficult life, when they live their life
>>> .> for God, they may still have to endure the physical pain in their body,
>>> .> but they don't have to endure any mental suffering in their mind. There
>>> .> isn't any to begin with. In fact, they may be given the extra strength
>>> .> to help them to endure the extra physical pain so that they can overcome
>>> .> their difficulty. To them, failure will never discourage them, each time
>>> .> they fail, it will only make them coming back to start a more fierce
>>> .> struggle. It's all because they live their lives for God, they have
>>> ,> nothing to worry about.
>>>
>
>
> .> > Are you speaking from personal experience with extreme
> .> > and omnipresent pain?
>
> .> Not really.
>
> And yet you feel qualified to tell us what the
> inner lives of  those afflicted with intractable
> pain is like.
>
>
> You might want to reflect on that.

I'm not speaking for everybody. It's just my own opinion based on my own 
experience which isn't qualified to be any kind of examples. Everybody 
in their life has to deal with pain and suffering sometimes.


>
>
>
>> Nothing even close to your imaginations.
>
> Thankfully, I cannot begin to imagine what it
> must be like for those with the very real
> syndromes I listed.

It may not be easy to remove the pain in their body, but it is possible 
to remove the suffering in their mind if they are willing.

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#1963730

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 5:17:10 PM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
> On 2015-08-18 11:25 PM, nature bats last wrote:
> > On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 11:30:16 PM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
> >> On 2015-08-18 02:02 AM, nature bats last wrote:
> >>> On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 10:49:44 AM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
> >>>> On 2015-08-17 11:56 PM, nature bats last wrote:
> >>>>> On Sunday, August 16, 2015 at 8:11:51 PM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
> >>>>>> On 2015-08-16 11:55 PM, John Ritson wrote:
> >>>>>>> In article <mqpvas$r80$1@dont-email.me>, niunian <niunian@ymail.com>
> >>>>>>> writes
> >>>>>>>> On 2015-08-16 01:33 PM, William December Starr wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> In article <mqke7b$vf2$10@dont-email.me>,
> >>>>>>>>> niunian <niunian@ymail.com> said:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> William December Starr wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> niunian <niunian@ymail.com> said:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Living itself is a purpose. And it is a great purpose. It is to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> worship the God of living.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Well I guess if you're going to anthropomorphize -- excuse me,
> >>>>>>>>>>> deus-morphize -- _any_ concept, then yes, any concept is a God of
> >>>>>>>>>>> something.  That gets us rather deep into "so what?" territory though.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Well, if we can agree on the fact of life which shows everybody
> >>>>>>>>>> including the atheists has a god of their own on a personal level,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> We can't.  You use the words 'god' and 'God' in ways that are so
> >>>>>>>>> non-standard that I doubt you make sense to anyone but yourself.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> That only because you have never thought of God/god on a personal level.
> >>>>>>>> God is not out there in the sky. God is within you who is the center of
> >>>>>>>> your life. You actually live your life for God even when you call
> >>>>>>>> yourself an atheist.
> >>>>>>> So (according to you) everybody lives their life for God.
> >>>>>>>> When you don't live your life for the God within
> >>>>>>>> you, you always suffer in life.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ..> > But since (according to you) everybody lives their life for God, nobody
> >>>>> ..> > 'always suffers'.
> >>>>> ..> > You are just talking rubbish.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ..> No. If we can always live our lives for God, we would never suffer.
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> .> > Try that one out on someone with reflex sympathetic dystrophy
> >>> .> > or paroxysmal extreme pain disorder or complex regional pain syndrome.
> >>>
> >>> .> For people who have to live a difficult life, when they live their life
> >>> .> for God, they may still have to endure the physical pain in their body,
> >>> .> but they don't have to endure any mental suffering in their mind. There
> >>> .> isn't any to begin with. In fact, they may be given the extra strength
> >>> .> to help them to endure the extra physical pain so that they can overcome
> >>> .> their difficulty. To them, failure will never discourage them, each time
> >>> .> they fail, it will only make them coming back to start a more fierce
> >>> .> struggle. It's all because they live their lives for God, they have
> >>> ,> nothing to worry about.
> >>>
> >
> >
> > .> > Are you speaking from personal experience with extreme
> > .> > and omnipresent pain?
> >
> > .> Not really.
> >
> > And yet you feel qualified to tell us what the
> > inner lives of  those afflicted with intractable
> > pain is like.
> >
> >
> > You might want to reflect on that.
> 
> I'm not speaking for everybody. It's just my own opinion based on my own 
> experience which isn't qualified to be any kind of examples. Everybody 
> in their life has to deal with pain and suffering sometimes.
> 
> 
> >
> >
> >
> >> Nothing even close to your imaginations.
> >
> > Thankfully, I cannot begin to imagine what it
> > must be like for those with the very real
> > syndromes I listed.
> 


.> It may not be easy to remove the pain in their body, but it is possible 
.> to remove the suffering in their mind if they are willing.

A false duality.


Seth

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#1964075

On 2015-08-19 09:10 AM, nature bats last wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 5:17:10 PM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
>> On 2015-08-18 11:25 PM, nature bats last wrote:
>>> On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 11:30:16 PM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
>>>> On 2015-08-18 02:02 AM, nature bats last wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 10:49:44 AM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
>>>>>> On 2015-08-17 11:56 PM, nature bats last wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sunday, August 16, 2015 at 8:11:51 PM UTC-7, niunian wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2015-08-16 11:55 PM, John Ritson wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In article <mqpvas$r80$1@dont-email.me>, niunian <niunian@ymail.com>
>>>>>>>>> writes
>>>>>>>>>> On 2015-08-16 01:33 PM, William December Starr wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In article <mqke7b$vf2$10@dont-email.me>,
>>>>>>>>>>> niunian <niunian@ymail.com> said:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> William December Starr wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> niunian <niunian@ymail.com> said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Living itself is a purpose. And it is a great purpose. It is to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worship the God of living.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well I guess if you're going to anthropomorphize -- excuse me,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> deus-morphize -- _any_ concept, then yes, any concept is a God of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> something.  That gets us rather deep into "so what?" territory though.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, if we can agree on the fact of life which shows everybody
>>>>>>>>>>>> including the atheists has a god of their own on a personal level,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We can't.  You use the words 'god' and 'God' in ways that are so
>>>>>>>>>>> non-standard that I doubt you make sense to anyone but yourself.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That only because you have never thought of God/god on a personal level.
>>>>>>>>>> God is not out there in the sky. God is within you who is the center of
>>>>>>>>>> your life. You actually live your life for God even when you call
>>>>>>>>>> yourself an atheist.
>>>>>>>>> So (according to you) everybody lives their life for God.
>>>>>>>>>> When you don't live your life for the God within
>>>>>>>>>> you, you always suffer in life.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ..> > But since (according to you) everybody lives their life for God, nobody
>>>>>>> ..> > 'always suffers'.
>>>>>>> ..> > You are just talking rubbish.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ..> No. If we can always live our lives for God, we would never suffer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> .> > Try that one out on someone with reflex sympathetic dystrophy
>>>>> .> > or paroxysmal extreme pain disorder or complex regional pain syndrome.
>>>>>
>>>>> .> For people who have to live a difficult life, when they live their life
>>>>> .> for God, they may still have to endure the physical pain in their body,
>>>>> .> but they don't have to endure any mental suffering in their mind. There
>>>>> .> isn't any to begin with. In fact, they may be given the extra strength
>>>>> .> to help them to endure the extra physical pain so that they can overcome
>>>>> .> their difficulty. To them, failure will never discourage them, each time
>>>>> .> they fail, it will only make them coming back to start a more fierce
>>>>> .> struggle. It's all because they live their lives for God, they have
>>>>> ,> nothing to worry about.
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> .> > Are you speaking from personal experience with extreme
>>> .> > and omnipresent pain?
>>>
>>> .> Not really.
>>>
>>> And yet you feel qualified to tell us what the
>>> inner lives of  those afflicted with intractable
>>> pain is like.
>>>
>>>
>>> You might want to reflect on that.
>>
>> I'm not speaking for everybody. It's just my own opinion based on my own
>> experience which isn't qualified to be any kind of examples. Everybody
>> in their life has to deal with pain and suffering sometimes.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Nothing even close to your imaginations.
>>>
>>> Thankfully, I cannot begin to imagine what it
>>> must be like for those with the very real
>>> syndromes I listed.
>>
>
>
> .> It may not be easy to remove the pain in their body, but it is possible
> .> to remove the suffering in their mind if they are willing.
>
> A false duality.

No. A real challenge.

>
> Seth
>

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