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Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms

From "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl>
Newsgroups comp.theory
Subject Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms
Date 2024-07-22 21:30 +0200
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <v7mc0r$pfs5$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (25 earlier) <v7lped$luh0$2@dont-email.me> <bc974139b83c0d9c3a42faeb83bb81ff27ed3547@i2pn2.org> <v7lskj$luh0$6@dont-email.me> <v7m5sj$ogs3$1@dont-email.me> <v7m8hp$p0um$1@dont-email.me>

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Op 22.jul.2024 om 20:31 schreef olcott:
> On 7/22/2024 12:45 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>> Op 22.jul.2024 om 17:08 schreef olcott:
>>> On 7/22/2024 9:32 AM, joes wrote:
>>>> Am Mon, 22 Jul 2024 09:13:33 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>> On 7/22/2024 3:01 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>> On 2024-07-21 13:50:17 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>> On 7/21/2024 4:38 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2024-07-20 13:28:36 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>> On 7/20/2024 3:54 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-07-19 14:39:25 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/19/2024 3:51 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Anyway you did not say that some HHHᵢ can simulate the
>>>>>>>>>> corresponding DDDᵢ to its termination. And each DDDᵢ does
>>>>>>>>>> terminate, whether simulated or not.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> Then DDD correctly simulated by any pure function HHH cannot 
>>>>>>> possibly
>>>>>>> reach its own return instruction and halt, therefore every HHH is
>>>>>>> correct to reject its DDD as non-halting.
>>>>>> That does not follow. It is never correct to reject a halting
>>>>>> comoputation as non-halting.
>>>>> In each of the above instances DDD never reaches its return 
>>>>> instruction
>>>>> and halts. This proves that HHH is correct to report that its DDD 
>>>>> never
>>>>> halts.
>>>> It can't return if the simulation of it is aborted.
>>>>
>>>>> Within the hypothetical scenario where DDD is correctly emulated by 
>>>>> its
>>>>> HHH and this HHH never aborts its simulation neither DDD nor HHH ever
>>>>> stops running.
>>>> In actuality HHH DOES abort simulating.
>>>>
>>>>> This conclusively proves that HHH is required to abort the 
>>>>> simulation of
>>>>> its corresponding DDD as required by the design spec that every 
>>>>> partial
>>>>> halt decider must halt and is otherwise not any kind of decider at 
>>>>> all.
>>>> Like Fred recognised a while ago, you are arguing as if HHH didn't 
>>>> abort.
>>>>
>>>>> That HHH is required to abort its simulation of DDD conclusively 
>>>>> proves
>>>>> that this DDD never halts.
>>>> You've got it the wrong way around.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I am talking about hypothetical possible ways that HHH could be encoded.
>>> (a) HHH(DDD) is encoded to abort its simulation.
>>> (b) HHH(DDD) is encoded to never abort its simulation.
>>>
>>> Therefore (a) is correct and (b) is incorrect according to the
>>> design requirements for HHH that it must halt.
>>
>> Both are incorrect. An HHH, when encoded to abort does not need to be 
>> aborted when simulated, because it already halts on its own.
> 
> You must have attention deficit disorder.
> (a) At least one HHH aborts.
> (b) No HHH ever aborts.
> 
> Every X has property Y or not, there is no inbetween.

Do you have difficulty reading and writing English?

If every X has property Y or not, then it is clear that every HHH abort 
or not. In other words, some HHH abort, some HHH do not abort.
Both produce an incorrect simulation, when they try to simulate themselves.

(a) Some HHH abort and they cause an incorrect simulation when 
simulating themselves, because they abort too soon, making the 
simulation incomplete and, therefore, incorrect.
(b) Some HHH never abort and they do not finish the simulation of 
themselves.
Both (a) and (b) result in incorrect simulations.
HHH cannot possibly simulate itself correctly.

When analysing (a), there is no need to dream about (b). The HHH that 
aborts will simulate itself, a HHH that aborts. So, in that case no 
abort is needed for the simulated HHH, because the simulated HHH is 
encoded to abort. However, the simulating HHH performs the unneeded 
abort, because it is encoded to do so.

When analysing (b), there is no need to dream about (a). The HHH that 
does not abort, should abort its own simulation, but cannot do that, 
because it is encode to never abort.

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Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-14 09:15 -0500
  Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-15 10:15 +0300
    Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-15 07:55 -0500
      Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-16 09:58 +0300
        Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-16 09:21 -0500
          Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-16 20:09 +0200
          Re: Liar detector: Peter Olcott Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-16 21:10 -0400
          Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-17 09:43 +0300
            Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-17 08:00 -0500
              Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-17 15:32 +0200
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-17 08:39 -0500
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-17 16:08 +0200
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-17 09:26 -0500
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-17 16:34 +0200
              Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-18 10:40 +0300
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-18 08:17 -0500
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-18 16:13 +0200
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-18 09:21 -0500
                Re: Liar detector: Peter Olcott Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-18 22:30 -0400
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-19 08:44 +0200
                Re: Liar detector: Peter Olcott Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-18 22:30 -0400
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-19 11:51 +0300
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-19 09:39 -0500
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement joes <noreply@example.org> - 2024-07-19 15:58 +0000
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-20 11:54 +0300
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Honest Dialogue ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-20 08:28 -0500
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Honest Dialogue ? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-20 09:45 -0400
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Honest Dialogue ? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-21 12:38 +0300
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Honest Dialogue ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-21 08:50 -0500
                Re: Liar detector:Peter Olcott --- Honest Dialogue ? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-21 13:52 -0400
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Honest Dialogue ? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-22 11:01 +0300
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Honest Dialogue ? --- Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-22 09:13 -0500
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs joes <noreply@example.org> - 2024-07-22 14:32 +0000
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-22 10:08 -0500
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-22 19:45 +0200
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-22 12:51 -0500
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-22 20:16 +0200
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-22 13:31 -0500
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-22 21:30 +0200
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-22 14:57 -0500
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms joes <noreply@example.org> - 2024-07-22 21:19 +0000
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-22 16:36 -0500
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-23 10:24 +0200
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-23 10:17 +0200
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-23 10:03 -0500
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-23 18:46 +0200
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-23 12:54 -0500
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-23 20:13 +0200
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-23 13:18 -0500
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-23 20:55 +0200
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-23 14:17 -0500
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-24 11:00 +0200
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-22 20:01 -0400
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-22 20:01 -0400
                Re: Liar detector: Peter Olcott --- Honest Dialogue ? --- Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs, all wrong Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-22 20:00 -0400
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Honest Dialogue ? --- Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-23 10:14 +0300
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Honest Dialogue ? --- Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-23 09:29 -0500
                Re: Liar detector: Peter Olcott--- Honest Dialogue ? --- Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs that are all wrong Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-23 22:16 -0400
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Honest Dialogue ? --- Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-25 12:44 +0300

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