Groups | Search | Server Info | Login | Register

Groups > comp.theory > #109403

Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms

From "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl>
Newsgroups comp.theory
Subject Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms
Date 2024-07-22 19:45 +0200
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <v7m5sj$ogs3$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (25 earlier) <v7j3mp$3o7r$4@dont-email.me> <v7l3kg$ifhl$1@dont-email.me> <v7lped$luh0$2@dont-email.me> <bc974139b83c0d9c3a42faeb83bb81ff27ed3547@i2pn2.org> <v7lskj$luh0$6@dont-email.me>

Show all headers | View raw

Op 22.jul.2024 om 17:08 schreef olcott:
> On 7/22/2024 9:32 AM, joes wrote:
>> Am Mon, 22 Jul 2024 09:13:33 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>> On 7/22/2024 3:01 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>> On 2024-07-21 13:50:17 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>> On 7/21/2024 4:38 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>> On 2024-07-20 13:28:36 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>> On 7/20/2024 3:54 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2024-07-19 14:39:25 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>> On 7/19/2024 3:51 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> Anyway you did not say that some HHHᵢ can simulate the
>>>>>>>> corresponding DDDᵢ to its termination. And each DDDᵢ does
>>>>>>>> terminate, whether simulated or not.
>>
>>
>>>>> Then DDD correctly simulated by any pure function HHH cannot possibly
>>>>> reach its own return instruction and halt, therefore every HHH is
>>>>> correct to reject its DDD as non-halting.
>>>> That does not follow. It is never correct to reject a halting
>>>> comoputation as non-halting.
>>> In each of the above instances DDD never reaches its return instruction
>>> and halts. This proves that HHH is correct to report that its DDD never
>>> halts.
>> It can't return if the simulation of it is aborted.
>>
>>> Within the hypothetical scenario where DDD is correctly emulated by its
>>> HHH and this HHH never aborts its simulation neither DDD nor HHH ever
>>> stops running.
>> In actuality HHH DOES abort simulating.
>>
>>> This conclusively proves that HHH is required to abort the simulation of
>>> its corresponding DDD as required by the design spec that every partial
>>> halt decider must halt and is otherwise not any kind of decider at all.
>> Like Fred recognised a while ago, you are arguing as if HHH didn't abort.
>>
>>> That HHH is required to abort its simulation of DDD conclusively proves
>>> that this DDD never halts.
>> You've got it the wrong way around.
>>
> 
> I am talking about hypothetical possible ways that HHH could be encoded.
> (a) HHH(DDD) is encoded to abort its simulation.
> (b) HHH(DDD) is encoded to never abort its simulation.
> 
> Therefore (a) is correct and (b) is incorrect according to the
> design requirements for HHH that it must halt.

Both are incorrect. An HHH, when encoded to abort does not need to be 
aborted when simulated, because it already halts on its own.
HHH, when simulated by itself, runs one cycle behind its simulator. 
Therefore, the simulating always aborts, when it is not needed, because 
the simulated HHH is encoded to abort one cycle later.
Therefore, the simulation is incomplete and, therefore, incorrect.

> 
> It is also a truism that any input that must be aborted
> is a non-halting input.

It is also a truism that a halting program does not need to be aborted.

Back to comp.theory | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar

Thread

Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-14 10:43 +0300
  Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-14 09:15 -0500
    Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-15 10:15 +0300
      Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-15 07:55 -0500
        Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-16 09:58 +0300
          Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-16 09:21 -0500
            Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-16 20:09 +0200
            Re: Liar detector: Peter Olcott Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-16 21:10 -0400
            Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-17 09:43 +0300
              Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-17 08:00 -0500
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-17 15:32 +0200
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-17 08:39 -0500
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-17 16:08 +0200
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-17 09:26 -0500
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-17 16:34 +0200
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-18 10:40 +0300
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-18 08:17 -0500
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-18 16:13 +0200
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-18 09:21 -0500
                Re: Liar detector: Peter Olcott Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-18 22:30 -0400
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-19 08:44 +0200
                Re: Liar detector: Peter Olcott Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-18 22:30 -0400
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-19 11:51 +0300
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-19 09:39 -0500
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement joes <noreply@example.org> - 2024-07-19 15:58 +0000
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Ben's agreement Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-20 11:54 +0300
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Honest Dialogue ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-20 08:28 -0500
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Honest Dialogue ? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-20 09:45 -0400
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Honest Dialogue ? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-21 12:38 +0300
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Honest Dialogue ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-21 08:50 -0500
                Re: Liar detector:Peter Olcott --- Honest Dialogue ? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-21 13:52 -0400
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Honest Dialogue ? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-22 11:01 +0300
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Honest Dialogue ? --- Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-22 09:13 -0500
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs joes <noreply@example.org> - 2024-07-22 14:32 +0000
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-22 10:08 -0500
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-22 19:45 +0200
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-22 12:51 -0500
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-22 20:16 +0200
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-22 13:31 -0500
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-22 21:30 +0200
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-22 14:57 -0500
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms joes <noreply@example.org> - 2024-07-22 21:19 +0000
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-22 16:36 -0500
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-23 10:24 +0200
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-23 10:17 +0200
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-23 10:03 -0500
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-23 18:46 +0200
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-23 12:54 -0500
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-23 20:13 +0200
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-23 13:18 -0500
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-23 20:55 +0200
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-23 14:17 -0500
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-07-24 11:00 +0200
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-22 20:01 -0400
                Re: Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs --- truisms Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-22 20:01 -0400
                Re: Liar detector: Peter Olcott --- Honest Dialogue ? --- Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs, all wrong Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-22 20:00 -0400
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Honest Dialogue ? --- Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-23 10:14 +0300
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Honest Dialogue ? --- Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-07-23 09:29 -0500
                Re: Liar detector: Peter Olcott--- Honest Dialogue ? --- Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs that are all wrong Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-07-23 22:16 -0400
                Re: Liar detector: Fred, Richard, Joes and Alan --- Honest Dialogue ? --- Infinite set of HHH/DDD pairs Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-07-25 12:44 +0300

csiph-web