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| From | olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.theory, sci.logic, comp.ai.philosophy |
| Subject | Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] |
| Date | 2023-07-03 22:47 -0500 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <u804og$3vudj$1@dont-email.me> (permalink) |
| References | (19 earlier) <v9HoM.4992$zQS.102@fx41.iad> <u7vf7o$3q766$4@dont-email.me> <ItHoM.4994$zQS.4029@fx41.iad> <u7vtv0$3rka3$1@dont-email.me> <HfMoM.807$8Ma1.187@fx37.iad> |
Cross-posted to 3 groups.
On 7/3/2023 10:22 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 7/3/23 9:51 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 7/3/2023 4:55 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 7/3/23 5:40 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 7/3/2023 4:34 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 7/3/23 5:30 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/3/2023 4:07 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 7/3/23 4:08 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 7/3/2023 2:58 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/23 2:56 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/2023 1:25 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/23 2:03 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/2023 11:26 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/23 12:05 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/2023 10:58 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/23 11:44 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/2023 10:35 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/23 10:42 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/2023 8:13 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/2/23 11:10 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Only when I show you are wrong. Actually try to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer my objections
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about a three valued decider?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0=undecidable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1=halting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2=not halting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't meet the definition of a Halt Decider.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because these are semantic properties based on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the input it does refute Rice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope. Rice's theorem doesn't allow for an 'undecidable'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> output state either.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Either the input is or is not something that is in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> set defined by the function/language defined.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Undecidable is just admitting that Rice is true.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Undecidable <is> a semantic property.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Source of that Claim?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And you aren't saying the Undecidable <IS> a semantic
>>>>>>>>>>>>> property, but is an answer for if an input <HAS> some
>>>>>>>>>>>>> specific semantic property.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In computability theory, Rice's theorem states that all
>>>>>>>>>>>> non-trivial
>>>>>>>>>>>> semantic properties of programs are undecidable. A semantic
>>>>>>>>>>>> property is
>>>>>>>>>>>> one about the program's behavior
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice%27s_theorem
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Undecidable <is> a semantic property of the finite string
>>>>>>>>>>>> pair: {H,D}.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As I mentioned, many simple descriptions get it wrong. Note,
>>>>>>>>>>> later in the same page it says:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It is important to note that Rice's theorem does not concern
>>>>>>>>>>> the properties of machines or programs; it concerns
>>>>>>>>>>> properties of functions and languages.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> H correctly accepts every language specified by the pair: {H, *}
>>>>>>>>>> (where the first element is the machine description of H and the
>>>>>>>>>> second element is any other machine description) or rejects this
>>>>>>>>>> pair as undecidable.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So, you are admitting you don't understand what you are saying.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> D isn't "undecidable" but always has definite behavior based on
>>>>>>>>> the behavior of the definite machine H that it was based on
>>>>>>>>> (and thus you are being INTENTIONALLY dupicious by now calling
>>>>>>>>> H to be a some sort of other decider).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Since you claim that Halt-Decider-H "Correctly" returned false
>>>>>>>>> for H(D,D) we know that D(D) Halts, so D the problem of D has
>>>>>>>>> an answer so hard to call "undecidable"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Again, what is the definition of your "Language", and why do
>>>>>>>>> you call {H,D} as UNDECIDABLE, since H will be a FIXED DEFINED
>>>>>>>>> decider that is just WRONG about its input, that isn't
>>>>>>>>> "undecidable".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> {H,D} undecidable means that D is undecidable for H, which is an
>>>>>>>> verified fact. The set of {H,*} finite string pairs do define a
>>>>>>>> language. Decidability <is> a semantic property because it
>>>>>>>> can only be correctly decided on the basis of behavior.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What do you mean by "Undecidable by H?"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> H correctly determines that it cannot provide a halt status
>>>>>> consistent with the behavior of the directly executed D(D).
>>>>>
>>>>> So? If it REALLY could detect that, it just needs to give the
>>>>> opposite answer.
>>>>>
>>>>> Or, in other words, you are just admitting that H is wrong.
>>>>
>>>> Try and show how D could do that.
>>>> D can loop if H says it will halt.
>>>> D can halt when H says it will loop.
>>>>
>>>> How does D make itself decidable by H to contradict
>>>> H determining that it is undecidable?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> It doesn't need to, and the fact you are asking the question jkust
>>> shows you don't understand what you are talking about.
>>>
>>> You clearly don't understnad what "Decidability" means.
>>>
>>
>>
>> *Computable set*
>> In computability theory, a set of natural numbers is called computable,
>> recursive, or decidable if there is an algorithm which takes a number as
>> input, terminates after a finite amount of time (possibly depending on
>> the given number) and correctly decides whether the number belongs to
>> the set or not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computable_set
>>
>> Because A finite string can be construed as a very large integer the
>> above must equally apply to finite strings. That you are trying to
>> get away with disavowing this doesn't seem quite right. Since you only
>> have an EE degree we could chalk this up to ignorance.
>>
>> It does seem that you acknowledge that there is no way to make
>> decidability undecidable.
>>
>>
>
> Except that "Decidability" isn't a property of an "input"/Machine, but
> of a PROBLEM, or one of the sets you are talking about. (not MEMBERS of
> the set, which are the machines, but the set as a whole)>
>
> So, you are confusing a property of the SET with a property of the members.
>
> Decidability is about the ability for there to exist a machine that can
> decide if its input is a member of the set. If there exist such a
> machine, then the SET is computable/decidable. If not, the SET isn't
> computable/decidable.
>
Since I just quoted that to you it is reasonable that you accept it.
> Nothing he talks about the possible members themselves being in the set
> or not being a property like "decidable", it just isn't a property of
> the members.
>
Using Rogers' characterization of acceptable programming systems, Rice's
theorem may essentially be generalized from Turing machines to most
computer programming languages: there exists no automatic method that
decides with generality non-trivial questions on the behavior of
computer programs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice%27s_theorem
H correctly determines whether or not it can correctly determine the
halting status for all of the members of the set of conventional halting
problem proof counter-examples and an infinite set of other elements.
H is deciding the semantic property of its own behavior on a set of
finite strings. The above says this can be done in C.
> Your question is like asking if 2 is Purple.
Mere empty rhetoric utterly bereft of any supporting reasoning.
--
Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer
Back to comp.theory | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar
Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 19:45 -0500
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Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:41 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:09 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:00 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:49 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:03 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:13 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 09:42 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:35 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:44 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:05 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:03 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:56 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:08 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:30 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:34 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:40 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 20:51 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 22:47 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 00:06 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 23:35 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2023-07-04 09:27 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-04 16:32 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 19:00 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:45 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:19 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:31 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:36 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 21:28 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 22:41 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 21:48 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:14 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 08:47 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 10:24 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 09:45 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:35 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:56 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:01 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:11 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 12:57 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:48 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:22 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:17 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:34 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 21:20 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 22:56 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 00:06 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 23:57 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2023-07-04 09:27 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-04 16:52 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 19:00 -0400
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