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Re: Decidability Decider H

From olcott <polcott2@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.theory, sci.logic, comp.ai.philosophy
Subject Re: Decidability Decider H
Date 2023-07-03 09:42 -0500
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <u7umo7$3nkts$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (1 earlier) <XFpoM.7004$edH5.61@fx11.iad> <u7ta54$3jb57$1@dont-email.me> <QvqoM.19838$WpLf.7251@fx33.iad> <u7te6r$3jn5i$1@dont-email.me> <jQzoM.10081$edH5.5217@fx11.iad>

Cross-posted to 3 groups.

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On 7/3/2023 8:13 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 7/2/23 11:10 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 7/2/2023 9:37 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 7/2/23 10:01 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 7/2/2023 8:40 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 7/2/23 8:45 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> A single H can consistently correctly determine whether or not its 
>>>>>> input
>>>>>> is pathological relative to itself. When H(D,D) is invoked in
>>>>>> decidability decider mode determines that D is pathological 
>>>>>> relative to
>>>>>> itself this enables a batch file to invoke H1(D,D) to get the actual
>>>>>> behavior of the directly executed D(D). H1 is identical to H 
>>>>>> except for
>>>>>> the pathological relationship to H.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And does an input D that uses this FULL algorithm give your 
>>>>> algorithm problems?
>>>>>
>>>>> Since H(D,D) will (apparently) determine that the input is 
>>>>> pathological, and thus defer to H1(D,D), then when we actually run 
>>>>> D, appearently it will get that same answer from H1 and do the 
>>>>> opposite of it, and thus H1 will be wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> Remember, the "Pathological" program is built on a copy of the 
>>>>> ACTUAL program that you ask to decide on it, including ALL of its 
>>>>> "tricks", including things like this "batch processing".
>>>>>
>>>>> You seem to be assuming that there is some "Operationg System" 
>>>>> outside the Decider - Input structure, but there isn't, at least 
>>>>> not one that can affect the answer of the problem.
>>>>
>>>> I spent 12 hours a day for the last 10 days getting the copy the input
>>>> working. When H(D,D) (in decidability decider mode) detects that its
>>>> input is in the well defined set of pathological inputs it returns 0
>>>> indicating that its input is undecidable. The batch file that invoked H
>>>> then knows to invoke H1(D,D) to correctly report that D(D) halts.
>>>>
>>>> This solution does seem to work correctly on every conventional 
>>>> proof in
>>>> every textbook.
>>>>
>>>
>>> So, what is the definition of that "Well Definde Set"? or is this 
>>> just another of your moronic oxymorons.
>>>
>>
>> A set is a well-defined collection of objects called elements or 
>> members of the set. If x is a member of the set S, we write x ∈ S, and 
>> if x is a not member of the set S, we write x ∈ S Here, well-defined 
>> means that any given object must either be an element of the set, or 
>> not be an element of the set.
>> https://www.math.uvic.ca/faculty/gmacgill/guide/sets.pdf
>>
>> My definition of well-defined set is that it includes and excludes a
>> body of finite string pairs such that the second element of this pair
>> that can be encoded in an infinite number of different ways that cannot
>> even be foreseen in advance, all of which have the property of a
>> pathological relationship to their decider.
> 
> And how do you detect this? You just admitted that there are an infinite 
> number of them, so you can't just string compare to detect it.
> 
>>
>> Since my system requires that the behavior of the input must be
>> considered in making this assessment it is a semantic property.
> 
> But you still haven't described how you detect it.
> 
> 
>>
>>> Note, H can't have "Modes" that are externally controlled, as it has 
>>> no input to control that, it is just a decider that is given an input 
>>> to decide on.
>>>
>>
>> Technically you are correct on this when construed as computable
>> functions.
>>
> 
> And computations are computable functions. If the function isn't 
> computable, by definition no program exists that computes it.
> 
> Deciders are, by definition, Computations, so again, by definition, 
> don't have "modes" (except as defined by an actual input).
> 
> All this shows is that you ar playing games with words, and have 
> deceived yourself.
> 
> If H has "Modes", it isn't the Decider, so showing that you can get the 
> correct answer for the D built on IT is meaningless, you need to show 
> you can get the correct answer for the D built on your actual decider, 
> not just a piece of it.
> 
>>> If you have some "fuller" algorithm you use to decide that uses the 
>>> sub-function H to do a step, then D needs to be built on that fuller 
>>> algorithm, as THAT is what you are actually claiming to be your halt 
>>> decider.
>>>
>>
>> It is only a matter of returning 1 for non-halting and halting inputs
>> and returning 0 for pathological inputs, thus the actual computation is
>> identical except for a single bit of the return value.
>>
>> We could also simply run the input where H(D,D) != H1(D,D) means 
>> pathological input, thus accept the H1(D,D) value as correct.
> 
> You need to make clear what type of decider you are defining. If a Halt 
> Decider, then there is no allowed change of answer.
> 
> IF you are trying to refute Rice, then you need to clearly define the 
> property that you are going to use, which your above definition requires 
> a FIXED H/H1 to be defined, and that the property is actually Semantic. 
> The fact that it is defined by executing your deciders is NOT enough.
> 
> One important thing that you seem to be missing is that Rice's Theorem 
> is NOT about "Programs" and their behavior, but about Functions and 
> languages, and their ability to be recognized by a program.
> 
> You still need to show that your property is semantic, and the fact that 
> you can determine that value without needing to actually run the input 
> shows that it isn't.
> 
>>
>>> I guess you are just making it painfully obvious that you don't 
>>> understand the nature of the problem you claim to be working on.
>>>
>>
>> I foresaw this objection before you made it.
> 
> But didn't answer it.
> 
>>
>>> So, since it seems that you have some sort of "batch file" that is 
>>> your actual decider, you need to show how you have a program invoke 
>>> that and do tha tin D. If you can't, you are just admitting that you 
>>> are not working on the actual problem defined, but are playing games 
>>> in the sub-Turing Complete versions of the problem, which has many 
>>> known solutions.
>>>
>>
>> Batch files and Bash scripts can take different paths depending on the
>> return value of their executable.
> 
> Right, but now the "Decider" is a "Batch Script" so the program D must 
> be able to do the equivalent of that batch script, or you system doesn't 
> acccept a Turing Complete set.
> 
>>
>>> It seems that you just wasted 120 hours of work and just proved that 
>>> you are totally ignorant of the problem and don't know what you are 
>>> talking aobut.
>>
>> You will say that no matter how correct that I prove to be.
>>
> 
> Only when I show you are wrong. Actually try to answer my objections


What about a three valued decider?
0=undecidable
1=halting
2=not halting

-- 
Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

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Thread

Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 19:45 -0500
  Re: Decidability Decider H Python <python@invalid.org> - 2023-07-03 03:11 +0200
  Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 21:27 -0400
  Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 21:40 -0400
    Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 21:01 -0500
      Re: Decidability Decider H Python <python@invalid.org> - 2023-07-03 04:05 +0200
      Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 22:37 -0400
        Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 22:10 -0500
          Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 22:54 -0500
            Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:14 -0400
              Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:10 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:35 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:41 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:09 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:00 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:49 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:03 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
          Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:13 -0400
            Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 09:42 -0500
              Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:35 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:44 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:05 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:03 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:56 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:08 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:30 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:34 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:40 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 20:51 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 22:47 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 00:06 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 23:35 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2023-07-04 09:27 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-04 16:32 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 19:00 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:45 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:19 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:31 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:36 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 21:28 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
      Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 22:41 -0400
        Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 21:48 -0500
          Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:14 -0400
            Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 08:47 -0500
              Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 10:24 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 09:45 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:35 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:56 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:01 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:11 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 12:57 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:48 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:22 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:17 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:34 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 21:20 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 22:56 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 00:06 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 23:57 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2023-07-04 09:27 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-04 16:52 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 19:00 -0400

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