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| Subject | Re: Decidability Decider H |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.theory, sci.logic, comp.ai.philosophy |
| References | (8 earlier) <u7uqch$3nvk2$2@dont-email.me> <XeCoM.21245$Bq67.7645@fx13.iad> <u7urkq$3o3bd$1@dont-email.me> <5FCoM.21251$Bq67.12963@fx13.iad> <u7v2hi$3opqe$3@dont-email.me> |
| From | Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> |
| Message-ID | <BoEoM.155$_2s1.26@fx44.iad> (permalink) |
| Organization | Forte - www.forteinc.com |
| Date | 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400 |
Cross-posted to 3 groups.
On 7/3/23 2:03 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 7/3/2023 11:26 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 7/3/23 12:05 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 7/3/2023 10:58 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 7/3/23 11:44 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 7/3/2023 10:35 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/3/23 10:42 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 7/3/2023 8:13 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 7/2/23 11:10 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Only when I show you are wrong. Actually try to answer my
>>>>>>>> objections
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What about a three valued decider?
>>>>>>> 0=undecidable
>>>>>>> 1=halting
>>>>>>> 2=not halting
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Doesn't meet the definition of a Halt Decider.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Because these are semantic properties based on the behavior of
>>>>> the input it does refute Rice.
>>>>
>>>> Nope. Rice's theorem doesn't allow for an 'undecidable' output state
>>>> either.
>>>>
>>>> Either the input is or is not something that is in the set defined
>>>> by the function/language defined.
>>>>
>>>> Undecidable is just admitting that Rice is true.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Undecidable <is> a semantic property.
>>
>> Source of that Claim?
>>
>> And you aren't saying the Undecidable <IS> a semantic property, but is
>> an answer for if an input <HAS> some specific semantic property.
>
> In computability theory, Rice's theorem states that all non-trivial
> semantic properties of programs are undecidable. A semantic property is
> one about the program's behavior
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice%27s_theorem
>
> Undecidable <is> a semantic property of the finite string pair: {H,D}.
>
As I mentioned, many simple descriptions get it wrong. Note, later in
the same page it says:
It is important to note that Rice's theorem does not concern the
properties of machines or programs; it concerns properties of functions
and languages.
So, it isn't pointing out that a given program is "Undecidable", or a
given decider is "undecidable" on a given input, but that the
mathematical function "Halting" representing the property of the machine
reaching a final state is undecidable, i.e., no decider program can give
the correct answer for all inputs.
Note also, the statement you quote does not say that "undecidable" is a
PROPERTY that Rice's Theorem is talking about, but that all semantic
properties end up having the attribute of being undecidable, i.e., there
is no "program" that can be given all possible inputs and always give
the correct answer (that the input has or doesn't have that property).
Note, Rice talks NOTHING about your finite string pairs {H,D}, but that
for the property that H is defined to try to decide on, there WILL be
some input that H will either not halt on, or give the wrong answer.
It is the PROPERTY that is "Undecidable", not a particular case.
Back to comp.theory | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar
Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 19:45 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Python <python@invalid.org> - 2023-07-03 03:11 +0200
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 21:27 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 21:40 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 21:01 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Python <python@invalid.org> - 2023-07-03 04:05 +0200
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 22:37 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 22:10 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 22:54 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:14 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:10 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:35 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:41 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:09 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:00 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:49 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:03 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:13 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 09:42 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:35 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:44 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:05 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:03 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:56 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:08 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:30 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:34 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:40 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 20:51 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 22:47 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 00:06 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 23:35 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2023-07-04 09:27 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-04 16:32 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 19:00 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:45 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:19 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:31 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:36 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 21:28 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 22:41 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 21:48 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:14 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 08:47 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 10:24 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 09:45 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:35 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:56 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:01 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:11 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 12:57 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:48 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:22 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:17 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:34 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 21:20 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 22:56 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 00:06 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 23:57 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2023-07-04 09:27 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-04 16:52 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 19:00 -0400
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