Groups | Search | Server Info | Login | Register

Groups > comp.theory > #65316

Re: Decidability Decider H

Subject Re: Decidability Decider H
Newsgroups comp.theory, sci.logic, comp.ai.philosophy
References (13 earlier) <u7v2b6$3opqe$2@dont-email.me> <poEoM.153$_2s1.80@fx44.iad> <u7v588$3p4d9$2@dont-email.me> <CLFoM.17230$W7d4.10194@fx18.iad> <u7v9j0$3plv4$1@dont-email.me>
From Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID <BMGoM.4987$zQS.3873@fx41.iad> (permalink)
Organization Forte - www.forteinc.com
Date 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400

Cross-posted to 3 groups.

Show all headers | View raw

On 7/3/23 4:03 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 7/3/2023 2:58 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 7/3/23 2:49 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 7/3/2023 1:25 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 7/3/23 2:00 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 7/3/2023 11:26 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/3/23 12:09 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 7/3/2023 10:58 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 7/3/23 11:41 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/2023 10:35 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/23 11:10 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> At the Turing machine level any D can make it impossible for a
>>>>>>>>>>> particular H to be unable to correctly report on the behavior 
>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>> directly executed D(D). Because D is a fixed constant finite 
>>>>>>>>>>> string it
>>>>>>>>>>> cannot dynamically reconfigure itself to fool a different H.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So, you don't understand the problem.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> D doesn't even exist as an input until you define the H 
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So you want a TM to decide halting for an imaginary input?
>>>>>>>>> That is not the way that computation actually works.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nope, it must decide for ALL inputs, even those that haven't 
>>>>>>>> been 'created' yet.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Once you create H, you can create D. That will be one of the 
>>>>>>>> infinite set of possible inputs that H was designed to decide on.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When we RUN H, the input exists. Until you decide on what H will 
>>>>>>>> be, we don't know which of all the possible inputs D will be.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In computability theory and computational complexity theory, a 
>>>>>>>>> decision
>>>>>>>>> problem is a computational problem that can be posed as a yes–no
>>>>>>>>> question of the input values.
>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_problem
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Right, and it must accept ALL inputs, it can take the input 
>>>>>>>> based on itself, which we don't know which one it will be until 
>>>>>>>> we define the decider.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> TM's do not take ideas held within the mind as their inputs, 
>>>>>>>>> they only
>>>>>>>>> take fixed constant finite strings as inputs.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Right, but since it takes ALL inputs, it can take an input based 
>>>>>>>> on itself, 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> None-the-less you continue to assert that it must take ideas as 
>>>>>>> inputs.
>>>>>>> It just doesn't work that way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nope, Where did I say THAT. 
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/3/2023 10:58 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>  > Nope, it must decide for ALL inputs, even those that haven't been
>>>>>  > 'created' yet.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Right, haven't been created at the time the decider is created, but 
>>>> will have been when it is run.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not unless the guy that wrote the decider also wrote its input.
>>> Until then the input you refer to is only imaginary.
>>>
>>
>> Why do you say that? As I said, it actually exist when we run the 
>> decider on it.
>>
> 
> It only exists in the imagination until someone actually creates the 
> finite string.
> 

So?

We CAN create it to give to H to ask it the question.

Thus, what is the problem with doing that?


The fact that you can imagine ways to do it wrong doesn't mean you can't 
do it right.

This is just more of your backwards logic, showing you have been just 
slinging more Red Herring because you can't handle the actual issue, 
that your H will ALWAYS get the wrong answer when asked this question 
(if it answers at all, which just shows another way to be wrong).

Back to comp.theory | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar

Thread

Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 19:45 -0500
  Re: Decidability Decider H Python <python@invalid.org> - 2023-07-03 03:11 +0200
  Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 21:27 -0400
  Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 21:40 -0400
    Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 21:01 -0500
      Re: Decidability Decider H Python <python@invalid.org> - 2023-07-03 04:05 +0200
      Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 22:37 -0400
        Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 22:10 -0500
          Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 22:54 -0500
            Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:14 -0400
              Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:10 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:35 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:41 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:09 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:00 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:49 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:03 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
          Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:13 -0400
            Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 09:42 -0500
              Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:35 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:44 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:05 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:03 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:56 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:08 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:30 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:34 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:40 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 20:51 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 22:47 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 00:06 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 23:35 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2023-07-04 09:27 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-04 16:32 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 19:00 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:45 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:19 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:31 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:36 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 21:28 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
      Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 22:41 -0400
        Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 21:48 -0500
          Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:14 -0400
            Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 08:47 -0500
              Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 10:24 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 09:45 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:35 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:56 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:01 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:11 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 12:57 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:48 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:22 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:17 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:34 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 21:20 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 22:56 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 00:06 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 23:57 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2023-07-04 09:27 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-04 16:52 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 19:00 -0400

csiph-web