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| From | olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.theory, sci.logic, comp.ai.philosophy |
| Subject | Re: Decidability Decider H |
| Date | 2023-07-03 16:19 -0500 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <u7ve0r$3q4bs$1@dont-email.me> (permalink) |
| References | (13 earlier) <BoEoM.155$_2s1.26@fx44.iad> <u7v5l8$3p4d9$3@dont-email.me> <FLFoM.17231$W7d4.13033@fx18.iad> <u7vc0q$3ptr9$1@dont-email.me> <IMGoM.4989$zQS.1164@fx41.iad> |
Cross-posted to 3 groups.
On 7/3/2023 4:07 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 7/3/23 4:45 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 7/3/2023 2:58 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 7/3/23 2:56 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 7/3/2023 1:25 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 7/3/23 2:03 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/3/2023 11:26 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 7/3/23 12:05 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 7/3/2023 10:58 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/23 11:44 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/2023 10:35 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/23 10:42 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/2023 8:13 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/2/23 11:10 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Only when I show you are wrong. Actually try to answer my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> objections
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What about a three valued decider?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 0=undecidable
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1=halting
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2=not halting
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't meet the definition of a Halt Decider.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Because these are semantic properties based on the behavior of
>>>>>>>>>> the input it does refute Rice.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nope. Rice's theorem doesn't allow for an 'undecidable' output
>>>>>>>>> state either.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Either the input is or is not something that is in the set
>>>>>>>>> defined by the function/language defined.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Undecidable is just admitting that Rice is true.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Undecidable <is> a semantic property.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Source of that Claim?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And you aren't saying the Undecidable <IS> a semantic property,
>>>>>>> but is an answer for if an input <HAS> some specific semantic
>>>>>>> property.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In computability theory, Rice's theorem states that all non-trivial
>>>>>> semantic properties of programs are undecidable. A semantic
>>>>>> property is
>>>>>> one about the program's behavior
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice%27s_theorem
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Undecidable <is> a semantic property of the finite string pair:
>>>>>> {H,D}.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As I mentioned, many simple descriptions get it wrong. Note, later
>>>>> in the same page it says:
>>>>>
>>>>> It is important to note that Rice's theorem does not concern the
>>>>> properties of machines or programs; it concerns properties of
>>>>> functions and languages.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> H correctly accepts every language specified by the pair: {H, *}
>>>> (where the first element is the machine description of H and the
>>>> second element is any other machine description) or rejects this
>>>> pair as undecidable.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> So, you are admitting you don't understand what you are saying.
>>>
>>> D isn't "undecidable" but always has definite behavior based on the
>>> behavior of the definite machine H that it was based on (and thus you
>>> are being INTENTIONALLY dupicious by now calling H to be a some sort
>>> of other decider).
>>>
>>> Since you claim that Halt-Decider-H "Correctly" returned false for
>>> H(D,D) we know that D(D) Halts, so D the problem of D has an answer
>>> so hard to call "undecidable"
>>>
>>> Again, what is the definition of your "Language", and why do you call
>>> {H,D} as UNDECIDABLE, since H will be a FIXED DEFINED decider that is
>>> just WRONG about its input, that isn't "undecidable".
>>
>>
>> Using Rogers' characterization of acceptable programming systems, Rice's
>> theorem may essentially be generalized from Turing machines to most
>> computer programming languages: there exists no automatic method that
>> decides with generality non-trivial questions on the behavior of
>> computer programs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice%27s_theorem
>>
>> H correctly divides inputs into
>> (a) Halting
>> (b) Not halting
>> (c) Cannot be decided by H
>>
>
> And where do you see anything that allows H to be "correct" in giving
> answer (c)?
>
> The specific input either represents a machine that does (a) or does
> (b), so in no case is the results of "it can not be decided" be correct.
>
> You are just showing that you fundamentally don't understand what you
> are talking about.
>
> The question follows the rule of the excluded middle, so there is no
> valid answer (c).
H is a correct halting decidability decider for itself.
Rice says that is impossible, thus Rice is wrong.
--
Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer
Back to comp.theory | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar
Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 19:45 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Python <python@invalid.org> - 2023-07-03 03:11 +0200
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 21:27 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 21:40 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 21:01 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Python <python@invalid.org> - 2023-07-03 04:05 +0200
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 22:37 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 22:10 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 22:54 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:14 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:10 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:35 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:41 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:09 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:00 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:49 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:03 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:13 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 09:42 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:35 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:44 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:05 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:03 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:56 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:08 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:30 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:34 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:40 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 20:51 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 22:47 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 00:06 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 23:35 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2023-07-04 09:27 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-04 16:32 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 19:00 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:45 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:19 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:31 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:36 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 21:28 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 22:41 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 21:48 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:14 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 08:47 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 10:24 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 09:45 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:35 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:56 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:01 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:11 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 12:57 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:48 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:22 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:17 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:34 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 21:20 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 22:56 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 00:06 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 23:57 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2023-07-04 09:27 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-04 16:52 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 19:00 -0400
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