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Groups > sci.electronics.design > #488966
| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.electronics.design |
| Subject | Re: OT: Muppets |
| Date | 2017-12-21 10:31 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <fa2cvuF5iofU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink) |
| References | (4 earlier) <p1camf$lvq$1@dont-email.me> <f9tq3uF3k7dU1@mid.individual.net> <p1ccoc$ve$1@dont-email.me> <f9vfm3Ff6ncU1@mid.individual.net> <p1e8se$cu3$1@dont-email.me> |
On 2017-12-20 10:07, rickman wrote:
> Joerg wrote on 12/20/2017 10:59 AM:
>> On 2017-12-19 17:01, rickman wrote:
>>> Joerg wrote on 12/19/2017 7:44 PM:
>>>> On 2017-12-19 16:25, rickman wrote:
>>>>> Joerg wrote on 12/19/2017 6:56 PM:
>>>>>> On 2017-12-19 15:46, rickman wrote:
[...]
>>>>>> One of the nine was the operator who didn't put on the brakes
>>>>>>> until the train was less than 500 feet from the back of the other
>>>>>>> train. I didn't follow the series of Post articles to find out how
>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>> sooner she could have seen the stopped train. One train should
>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>> see another, stopped or not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is one of the accidents that the German Indusi system
>>>>>> prevents. It
>>>>>> disects pretty much their whole rail system into blocks. A train will
>>>>>> not be
>>>>>> allowed to enter a block in which another train is present, moving or
>>>>>> not.
>>>>>> If the operator won't apply the brakes in time the Indusi system
>>>>>> overrides.
>>>>>> I believe nowadays that event is being recorded and the operator
>>>>>> would be
>>>>>> required to do some explaining.
>>>>>
>>>>> How is this different from the US system? Sounds just like what was
>>>>> described in the paper.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As I said it divides a track into blocks of sections. There are WW-II
>>>> movies
>>>> where the resistance and sabotage groups mess with the Nazi train
>>>> system
>>>> (which they had partly equipped with this Indusi system). You can
>>>> see the
>>>> big screens that show where the trains were. Big white boards with
>>>> lights in
>>>> them. That's pretty much how my grandpa who was a train engineer
>>>> described
>>>> it to me.
>>>
>>> They had one of those boards in the dispatchers office when my dad
>>> worked in Camden Yards. Now it's a ball field and they control the
>>> entire CSX system (it was B&O, then C&O when my dad worked there) from
>>> Gainesville, FL I believe.
>>>
>>> You didn't answer my question about what is different between the
>>> systems that you think the German system can't have a failure.
>>>
>>
>> See below. I never said it is 100% fail-safe. No system ever is but it is
>> much safer versus what we have in the US (or rather, don't have ...)
>
> You still didn't answer the question about what is *DIFFERENT* between
> the two systems. You are going on about how much better the German
> system is without saying what is different!!!
>
I had explained it within this thread. Why don't you first read before
typing such stuff? There isn't much available in English language but
here are more details, it is a ground based system with inductive
coupling, not radio-operated or GPS:
http://www.sh1.org/eisenbahn/rindusi.htm
But that's not my point, the US system can also work very well. My point
is, they _implemented_ it more than half a decade ago while we are still
talking and talking and talking. Meantime people are dying needlessly.
>
>>>>>> It is not 100% fail-safe and there are some lonely single-line
>>>>>> sections
>>>>>> without this automation but it would have prevented most of the
>>>>>> serious
>>>>>> train wrecks we had in the US.
>>>>>
>>>>> How does a German system prevent US wrecks?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If a detector into sector 16 misses a train then this train is assumed
>>>> not
>>>> to have left sector 15 even if it did. That means that a train
>>>> traveling
>>>> through sector 14 will be stopped via a sign which cannot be set to
>>>> "GO"
>>>> until sector 15 is signaled as clear. If the train operator fails to
>>>> engage
>>>> the brakes the train will be stopped automatically. Sort of a
>>>> double-safety.
>>>> This can result in a huge traffic clog but that is better than people
>>>> dying.
>>>
>>> What about trains traveling the other direction in sector 17 entering
>>> sector 16 on the same track? Not only is this not uncommon on dual
>>> track, many railroads are single track with traffic in both directions.
>>> Sounds ot me like it is exactly the same.
>>>
>>
>> It normally won't even let a train onto the track in opposite direction
>> anywhere close to another. It'll stop it.
>
> You aren't reading the conversation.The question is how does it stop a
> train traveling in the opposite direction if it doesn't know the stopped
> train is there?
>
The system will interlock. The only time when that doesn't happen is in
deliberate "wrong direction travel" ("Falschfahrbetrieb") on a line that
isn't equipped for both-direction interlock. This can happen if, for
example, the regular direction track is closed for construction
activities or track maintenance. Then they travel with written
instructions, typically at low speed and with extra caution.
>
>>>>>>> I recall riding the subway and looking up the tunnel I could just
>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>> the tail of a train that left the station and was preventing the
>>>>>>> next
>>>>>>> train from coming to pick us up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Subways often have good automation in the US. It's the railroads that
>>>>>> are on
>>>>>> Flintstonian technology.
>>>>>
>>>>> They still have a great safety record. It's only being discussed here
>>>>> because it is sensational.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Many train wrecks were avoidable with rather simpe, technology. Like
>>>> this one:
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chatsworth_train_collision
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> ... The real disaster is autos. But everyone
>>>>> accepts that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> True. That's in part because our nation is glued to the automobile
>>>> and in
>>>> part because most people don't have any other options.
>>>
>>> No, it's because people aren't rational in their response to issues.
>>> They become desensitized to the common traffic accidents but the
>>> infrequent rail and air disasters are big headlines.
>>>
>>
>> To some extent, yes. However, not when witnessed personally. Most people
>> cannot forget a gruesome accident scene even if it was decades ago. I
>> still
>> remember one from my childhood days, in detail.
>
> Fortunately, and unfortunately, very few people get to see any serious
> accidents. So they think accidents won't happen to them.
>
The older one gets the more one sees. I have seen several serious ones,
with fatalities. The first one as a child made me very aware that one
shall use provided safety equipment at all times. A guy wasn't buckled
in, flipped his car, went through the windshield and died.
When I got my first car it was an old model budget-class car which was
prepared for but not equipped with safety belts. My first action after
restoring its engine was the installation of safety belts. Before I even
test-drove it.
>
>>>>> ... Just like the Boston bombing, people in the deli where I
>>>>> had to get my Internet access were glued to the TV. But two days
>>>>> later
>>>>> 5 times as many die in a plant explosion in Texas and no one gives
>>>>> it a
>>>>> thought. They were still glued to the Boston story.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not about what is important, it is about what is sensational.
>>>>> The
>>>>> shade tree mechanics here can wax on about how bad others do jobs we
>>>>> aren't tasked with (you know who I mean John) but we don't have a real
>>>>> clue how to do them better.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well, in this case we do have a clue how to do the job better. Since
>>>> more
>>>> than half a century.
>>>
>>> As is often the case, you seem to be talking through your hat. We also
>>> can do better on nuclear safety, but it's not a priority with anyone.
>>>
>>
>> My philosophy is that if we can do better in some area then we ought to.
>
> Yes, I think that applies to nearly everything we do. We can always do
> better, but not if we take the attitude that we are doing good enough.
>
> The part of the North Anna nuclear reactor event that impacted me the
> most was to realize that the power plant had single points of failure in
> critical safety systems. The one that caused a generator failure was a
> defective procedure in installing a head gasket. We were very lucky
> that the generators ran as well as they did. Since the procedure
> impacts *all* the generators it could have caused them all to fail.
>
I hope we all learn from such white-knuckle events. However, mostly
mankind is quite learning-resistant. For example, in the hills near
Fukushima there are stone markers from hundreds of years ago reading
something like "Do not build anything valuable below here because
eventually the sea will take it away" (quite obviously referring to
tsunamis). Then, they built a nuclear power station way down there and
didn't even place the emergency generators high enough or up into the
hills. We all know how that ended.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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Re: OT: Muppets Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-12-22 20:49 +0000
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-22 16:26 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-12-22 15:36 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-23 08:19 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-23 06:30 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-23 15:09 -0500
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