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Re: OT: Muppets

From Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
Newsgroups sci.electronics.design
Subject Re: OT: Muppets
Date 2017-12-19 16:44 -0800
Message-ID <f9tq3uF3k7dU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References <Eb7_B.2465$oE2.529@fx33.iad> <f9tk2cF2cmoU1@mid.individual.net> <p1c8dc$98e$1@dont-email.me> <f9tn95F32h0U1@mid.individual.net> <p1camf$lvq$1@dont-email.me>

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On 2017-12-19 16:25, rickman wrote:
> Joerg wrote on 12/19/2017 6:56 PM:
>> On 2017-12-19 15:46, rickman wrote:
>>> Joerg wrote on 12/19/2017 6:01 PM:
>>>> On 2017-12-19 04:00, bitrex wrote:
>>>>> <https://jalopnik.com/what-causes-amtrak-trains-to-derail-1821404755>
>>>>>
>>>>> $800 million spent on the project you'd think they could spend a few
>>>>> bucks on a crew that knew how to slow down going around a curve.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The really sad news is that the technology to avoid this has been
>>>> around and
>>>> successfully used in Germany since before World War II. They call it
>>>> Inductive Train Safeguarding or Indusi. That slows down and even brings
>>>> trains to a full stop, overriding an offending operator. It is not
>>>> rocket
>>>> science.
>>>>
>>>> Yet we have all those so-called "licensed engineers" who are
>>>> supposed to
>>>> "safeguard the public" and blah-blah, then fail on the simplest and
>>>> most
>>>> obvious points. They should never have signed and stamped such "system"
>>>> designs. Yet they did and that has killed people over and over again.
>>>
>>> The DC metro was fully automated until the accident that killed nine
>>> people by a train hitting a stopped train that wasn't seen by the
>>> system.
>>
>>
>> Did they ever find out why the system did not register the stopped train?
>
> I posted that in another comment.


Must have been in another thread.


>                           ... The device in that block had a weird
> rapid intermittent that the system didn't recognize as a failure, but it
> didn't report the train.  Maybe the system should provide some feedback
> to the train operator so if the system looses track of a train, at least
> the operator knows and can alert someone to manually flag it's position.
>

There are better ways than that, see further below.


> That is what is different between train dispatch and air traffic
> control, at least with an automated system.  The train dropped off the
> map and the system didn't flag an error.  I think it operates at a more
> fundamental level based on always knowing when a train is in a block and
> not letting traffic into that block or any adjacent block.  No thought
> to tracking anything.
>

That is a serious system design error.

>
>>   One of the nine was the operator who didn't put on the brakes
>>> until the train was less than 500 feet from the back of the other
>>> train.  I didn't follow the series of Post articles to find out how much
>>> sooner she could have seen the stopped train.  One train should never
>>> see another, stopped or not.
>>>
>>
>> That is one of the accidents that the German Indusi system prevents. It
>> disects pretty much their whole rail system into blocks. A train will
>> not be
>> allowed to enter a block in which another train is present, moving or
>> not.
>> If the operator won't apply the brakes in time the Indusi system
>> overrides.
>> I believe nowadays that event is being recorded and the operator would be
>> required to do some explaining.
>
> How is this different from the US system?  Sounds just like what was
> described in the paper.
>

As I said it divides a track into blocks of sections. There are WW-II 
movies where the resistance and sabotage groups mess with the Nazi train 
system (which they had partly equipped with this Indusi system). You can 
see the big screens that show where the trains were. Big white boards 
with lights in them. That's pretty much how my grandpa who was a train 
engineer described it to me.

>
>> It is not 100% fail-safe and there are some lonely single-line sections
>> without this automation but it would have prevented most of the serious
>> train wrecks we had in the US.
>
> How does a German system prevent US wrecks?
>

If a detector into sector 16 misses a train then this train is assumed 
not to have left sector 15 even if it did. That means that a train 
traveling through sector 14 will be stopped via a sign which cannot be 
set to "GO" until sector 15 is signaled as clear. If the train operator 
fails to engage the brakes the train will be stopped automatically. Sort 
of a double-safety. This can result in a huge traffic clog but that is 
better than people dying.


>
>>> I recall riding the subway and looking up the tunnel I could just see
>>> the tail of a train that left the station and was preventing the next
>>> train from coming to pick us up.
>>>
>>
>> Subways often have good automation in the US. It's the railroads that
>> are on
>> Flintstonian technology.
>
> They still have a great safety record.  It's only being discussed here
> because it is sensational.


Many train wrecks were avoidable with rather simpe, technology. Like 
this one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chatsworth_train_collision


>                        ... The real disaster is autos.  But everyone
> accepts that.


True. That's in part because our nation is glued to the automobile and 
in part because most people don't have any other options.


>        ... Just like the Boston bombing, people in the deli where I
> had to get my Internet access were glued to the TV.  But two days later
> 5 times as many die in a plant explosion in Texas and no one gives it a
> thought. They were still glued to the Boston story.
>
> It's not about what is important, it is about what is sensational.  The
> shade tree mechanics here can wax on about how bad others do jobs we
> aren't tasked with (you know who I mean John) but we don't have a real
> clue how to do them better.
>

Well, in this case we do have a clue how to do the job better. Since 
more than half a century.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-19 07:00 -0500
  Re: OT: Muppets amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-12-19 08:37 -0600
    Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-19 09:49 -0500
      Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-19 10:00 -0500
    Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-19 09:56 -0500
    Re: OT: Muppets John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-12-19 08:53 -0800
      Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-19 12:20 -0500
        Re: OT: Muppets whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-12-19 14:27 -0800
          Re: OT: Muppets John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-12-19 15:24 -0800
          Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-19 18:39 -0500
        Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-19 20:53 -0500
          Re: OT: Muppets John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-12-20 10:08 -0800
            Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 13:19 -0500
              Re: OT: Muppets Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-12-20 10:32 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-12-20 12:11 -0800
              Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-20 21:52 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-12-21 10:56 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-21 19:24 -0500
  Re: Muppets "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-12-19 16:48 -0600
    Re: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-19 18:08 -0500
      Re: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-19 18:26 -0500
  Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-19 15:01 -0800
    Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-19 18:46 -0500
      Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-19 15:56 -0800
        Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-19 19:25 -0500
          Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-19 16:44 -0800
            Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-19 20:01 -0500
              Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-20 07:59 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 13:07 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-21 10:31 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-21 14:33 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-21 12:00 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-21 16:06 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> - 2017-12-21 12:14 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-12-21 17:58 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-22 12:58 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-12-22 15:21 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-22 16:12 -0800
            Re: OT: Muppets Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-12-20 01:32 +0000
              Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-19 20:40 -0500
              Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-20 08:02 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-12-20 16:47 +0000
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 13:16 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 10:50 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 14:17 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-20 22:00 -0500
            Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-20 08:08 -0500
              Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-20 08:09 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-12-20 09:17 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 13:26 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-21 10:37 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-12-21 10:58 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-21 11:17 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-20 14:14 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 14:18 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-20 14:48 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 16:04 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-20 16:55 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 16:59 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-20 18:30 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 19:40 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-20 22:03 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-21 10:41 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-20 22:03 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets Michael A Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> - 2017-12-20 22:38 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-21 10:52 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-21 14:53 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-21 12:32 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-21 19:30 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-21 16:37 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-22 08:57 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-22 10:23 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets Michael A Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> - 2017-12-22 17:23 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-22 14:53 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-22 18:57 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-22 20:10 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets Michael A Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> - 2017-12-22 20:57 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-22 19:07 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-22 19:04 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-23 07:39 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-23 15:03 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-23 12:09 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-23 15:17 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-23 15:27 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-23 20:49 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-24 07:50 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-24 16:56 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-24 14:37 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-24 17:51 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-24 15:15 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-24 18:41 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-24 23:33 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-25 05:48 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-25 09:57 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-25 17:29 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets Joseph Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2017-12-25 20:38 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-25 21:23 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-25 18:47 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-12-25 19:09 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets Michael A Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> - 2017-12-26 00:33 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-25 22:10 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-25 07:18 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-25 18:25 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-25 10:55 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-24 18:39 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-24 07:46 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-24 12:23 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-25 21:57 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-23 20:47 -0500
              Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 13:31 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-12-20 18:36 +0000
                Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-20 14:10 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-12-20 12:13 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-20 16:41 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-20 16:42 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-12-20 14:16 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-12-20 22:56 +0000
                Re: OT: Muppets whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 15:12 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-12-20 15:26 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-12-20 23:37 +0000
                Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-20 18:42 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 16:26 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-12-21 08:45 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-12-21 09:29 +0000
                Re: OT: Muppets John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> - 2017-12-20 15:30 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-20 22:08 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-20 18:36 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-20 22:09 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 15:28 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-20 14:02 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-20 16:33 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 21:09 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-20 22:55 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-21 09:38 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-21 18:06 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-21 21:59 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-22 02:56 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-22 11:45 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-22 18:02 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-22 22:39 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-22 23:01 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-12-23 09:05 +0000
                Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-23 10:04 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets Michael A Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> - 2017-12-23 14:00 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-23 20:51 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-23 06:15 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-23 14:38 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-23 17:43 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-23 21:25 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-12-24 09:58 +0000
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-24 08:29 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-24 06:06 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-12-24 17:53 +0000
                Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-24 03:41 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-24 09:12 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-24 15:32 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-12-23 08:52 +0000
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-23 14:40 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-12-23 19:49 +0000
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-23 14:55 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-12-23 20:03 +0000
                Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-23 17:53 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-12-22 20:49 +0000
                Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-22 16:26 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-12-22 15:36 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-23 08:19 -0500
                Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-23 06:30 -0800
                Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-23 15:09 -0500

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