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Groups > sci.electronics.design > #488976
| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.electronics.design |
| Subject | Re: OT: Muppets |
| Date | 2017-12-21 12:00 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <fa2i5oF6pd1U1@mid.individual.net> (permalink) |
| References | (6 earlier) <p1ccoc$ve$1@dont-email.me> <f9vfm3Ff6ncU1@mid.individual.net> <p1e8se$cu3$1@dont-email.me> <fa2cvuF5iofU1@mid.individual.net> <p1h29l$b97$1@dont-email.me> |
On 2017-12-21 11:33, rickman wrote:
> Joerg wrote on 12/21/2017 1:31 PM:
>> On 2017-12-20 10:07, rickman wrote:
>>> Joerg wrote on 12/20/2017 10:59 AM:
>>>> On 2017-12-19 17:01, rickman wrote:
>>>>> Joerg wrote on 12/19/2017 7:44 PM:
>>>>>> On 2017-12-19 16:25, rickman wrote:
>>>>>>> Joerg wrote on 12/19/2017 6:56 PM:
>>>>>>>> On 2017-12-19 15:46, rickman wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>
>>>>>>>> One of the nine was the operator who didn't put on the brakes
>>>>>>>>> until the train was less than 500 feet from the back of the other
>>>>>>>>> train. I didn't follow the series of Post articles to find out
>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>> sooner she could have seen the stopped train. One train should
>>>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>>> see another, stopped or not.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is one of the accidents that the German Indusi system
>>>>>>>> prevents. It
>>>>>>>> disects pretty much their whole rail system into blocks. A train
>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>> not be
>>>>>>>> allowed to enter a block in which another train is present,
>>>>>>>> moving or
>>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>>> If the operator won't apply the brakes in time the Indusi system
>>>>>>>> overrides.
>>>>>>>> I believe nowadays that event is being recorded and the operator
>>>>>>>> would be
>>>>>>>> required to do some explaining.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How is this different from the US system? Sounds just like what was
>>>>>>> described in the paper.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I said it divides a track into blocks of sections. There are WW-II
>>>>>> movies
>>>>>> where the resistance and sabotage groups mess with the Nazi train
>>>>>> system
>>>>>> (which they had partly equipped with this Indusi system). You can
>>>>>> see the
>>>>>> big screens that show where the trains were. Big white boards with
>>>>>> lights in
>>>>>> them. That's pretty much how my grandpa who was a train engineer
>>>>>> described
>>>>>> it to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> They had one of those boards in the dispatchers office when my dad
>>>>> worked in Camden Yards. Now it's a ball field and they control the
>>>>> entire CSX system (it was B&O, then C&O when my dad worked there) from
>>>>> Gainesville, FL I believe.
>>>>>
>>>>> You didn't answer my question about what is different between the
>>>>> systems that you think the German system can't have a failure.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> See below. I never said it is 100% fail-safe. No system ever is but
>>>> it is
>>>> much safer versus what we have in the US (or rather, don't have ...)
>>>
>>> You still didn't answer the question about what is *DIFFERENT* between
>>> the two systems. You are going on about how much better the German
>>> system is without saying what is different!!!
>>>
>>
>> I had explained it within this thread. Why don't you first read before
>> typing such stuff?
>
> The thread has some 100 posts in it. This sub thread is about the two
> systems. If you don't wish to be clear, fine. I'm not search in 100
> posts for what you say you have written which likely isn't an answer to
> my question anyway. If you don't wish to discuss it fine.
>
I don't wish to repeat everything.
>
>> There isn't much available in English language but here
>> are more details, it is a ground based system with inductive coupling,
>> not
>> radio-operated or GPS:
>>
>> http://www.sh1.org/eisenbahn/rindusi.htm
>
> This is not the issue. The issue is what happens when a detector has a
> fault. In the US case we have been discussing the fault was a very
> strange fault that escaped the safeguards to prevent a fault from
> allowing a train to be missed.
>
>
>> But that's not my point, the US system can also work very well. My
>> point is,
>> they _implemented_ it more than half a decade ago while we are still
>> talking
>> and talking and talking. Meantime people are dying needlessly.
>
> You don't make sense. The US system has had many safeguards.
But it wasn't turned on.
> ... The link
> you provide above is similar to the US system in what it does,
> preventing collisions of trains by knowing where they are. The PTC
> system the US has not completed is an entirely different level of
> protection which will stop or slow a train when the operator has not
> done so. Inductive sensing is not about this at all. There are many
> ways to sense the train and the US system has that. That isn't what PTC
> is about.
>
>
>>>>>>>> It is not 100% fail-safe and there are some lonely single-line
>>>>>>>> sections
>>>>>>>> without this automation but it would have prevented most of the
>>>>>>>> serious
>>>>>>>> train wrecks we had in the US.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How does a German system prevent US wrecks?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If a detector into sector 16 misses a train then this train is
>>>>>> assumed
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> to have left sector 15 even if it did. That means that a train
>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>> through sector 14 will be stopped via a sign which cannot be set to
>>>>>> "GO"
>>>>>> until sector 15 is signaled as clear. If the train operator fails to
>>>>>> engage
>>>>>> the brakes the train will be stopped automatically. Sort of a
>>>>>> double-safety.
>>>>>> This can result in a huge traffic clog but that is better than people
>>>>>> dying.
>>>>>
>>>>> What about trains traveling the other direction in sector 17 entering
>>>>> sector 16 on the same track? Not only is this not uncommon on dual
>>>>> track, many railroads are single track with traffic in both
>>>>> directions.
>>>>> Sounds ot me like it is exactly the same.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It normally won't even let a train onto the track in opposite direction
>>>> anywhere close to another. It'll stop it.
>>>
>>> You aren't reading the conversation.The question is how does it stop a
>>> train traveling in the opposite direction if it doesn't know the stopped
>>> train is there?
>>>
>>
>> The system will interlock. The only time when that doesn't happen is in
>> deliberate "wrong direction travel" ("Falschfahrbetrieb") on a line that
>> isn't equipped for both-direction interlock. This can happen if, for
>> example, the regular direction track is closed for construction
>> activities
>> or track maintenance. Then they travel with written instructions,
>> typically
>> at low speed and with extra caution.
>
> Saying "the system will interlock" doesn't explain it. You laid out an
> example in detail and you can't explain how it will prevent this type of
> accident.
>
<sigh>
The system relies on two layers. One is the inductive xfer which is
secondary, only applies if human error comes into play. The main system
also relies on what theyu call blocks. Train does not show up in
expected block at expected time -> alarm -> everything will be stopped
on that line. You need to have a double-fault for a crash to happen
unless the track isn't equipped with Indusi (there are some).
They still have nasty crashes but those are usually cause by things like
equipment failure at high speed.
[...]
>>>>>>> ... Just like the Boston bombing, people in the deli where I
>>>>>>> had to get my Internet access were glued to the TV. But two days
>>>>>>> later
>>>>>>> 5 times as many die in a plant explosion in Texas and no one gives
>>>>>>> it a
>>>>>>> thought. They were still glued to the Boston story.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's not about what is important, it is about what is sensational.
>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>> shade tree mechanics here can wax on about how bad others do jobs we
>>>>>>> aren't tasked with (you know who I mean John) but we don't have a
>>>>>>> real
>>>>>>> clue how to do them better.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, in this case we do have a clue how to do the job better. Since
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> than half a century.
>>>>>
>>>>> As is often the case, you seem to be talking through your hat. We
>>>>> also
>>>>> can do better on nuclear safety, but it's not a priority with anyone.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My philosophy is that if we can do better in some area then we ought
>>>> to.
>>>
>>> Yes, I think that applies to nearly everything we do. We can always do
>>> better, but not if we take the attitude that we are doing good enough.
>>>
>>> The part of the North Anna nuclear reactor event that impacted me the
>>> most was to realize that the power plant had single points of failure in
>>> critical safety systems. The one that caused a generator failure was a
>>> defective procedure in installing a head gasket. We were very lucky
>>> that the generators ran as well as they did. Since the procedure
>>> impacts *all* the generators it could have caused them all to fail.
>>>
>>
>> I hope we all learn from such white-knuckle events. However, mostly
>> mankind
>> is quite learning-resistant. For example, in the hills near Fukushima
>> there
>> are stone markers from hundreds of years ago reading something like
>> "Do not
>> build anything valuable below here because eventually the sea will
>> take it
>> away" (quite obviously referring to tsunamis). Then, they built a nuclear
>> power station way down there and didn't even place the emergency
>> generators
>> high enough or up into the hills. We all know how that ended.
>
> They didn't design the plant blindly, they designed the plant to suit
> their analysis of the hazards. But many errors were made including a
> misunderstanding of the hazards.
Understanding would have merely required taking to heart the warnings
that the forefathers gave. They didn't go through the extra effort and
cost of engraving it in stone for nothing. They obviously wanted these
warnings to be visible to our generation and beyond. Yet our generation
ignored them.
> ... The problem we continually repeat is
> to factor the costs of over designing without fully considering the
> catastrophic consequences of failing to adequately design.
>
It was quite obvious here. The backup power generators were not
sufficiently protected, 12 of the 13 flooded, consequently could no
longer start, thus the emergency cooling system could not function, and
then the disaster unfolded.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-22 22:39 -0500
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Re: OT: Muppets Michael A Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> - 2017-12-23 14:00 -0500
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Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-23 14:38 -0500
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Re: OT: Muppets Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-12-24 09:58 +0000
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Re: OT: Muppets Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-12-24 17:53 +0000
Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-24 03:41 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-24 09:12 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-24 15:32 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-12-23 08:52 +0000
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-23 14:40 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-12-23 19:49 +0000
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-23 14:55 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-12-23 20:03 +0000
Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-23 17:53 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-12-22 20:49 +0000
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-22 16:26 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-12-22 15:36 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-23 08:19 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-23 06:30 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-23 15:09 -0500
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