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Groups > sci.electronics.design > #489113
| From | krw@notreal.com |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.electronics.design |
| Subject | Re: OT: Muppets |
| Message-ID | <dnkr3dpqbsbisbpn3het6736hsmpslnjs1@4ax.com> (permalink) |
| References | (6 earlier) <p1hsfd$ge4$1@dont-email.me> <f7e9bf59-52ab-463c-9b60-10c2904a2c52@googlegroups.com> <p1jcr4$6m1$1@dont-email.me> <24b2deeb-e516-4a9e-807a-ac526bc27bc5@googlegroups.com> <p1kj5m$l58$1@dont-email.me> |
| Organization | Forte - www.forteinc.com |
| Date | 2017-12-22 23:01 -0500 |
On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 22:39:36 -0500, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote: >bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote on 12/22/2017 9:02 PM: >> On Saturday, December 23, 2017 at 3:45:33 AM UTC+11, rickman wrote: >>> bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote on 12/22/2017 5:56 AM: >>>> On Friday, December 22, 2017 at 2:00:05 PM UTC+11, rickman wrote: >>>>> bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote on 12/21/2017 9:06 PM: >>>>>> On Friday, December 22, 2017 at 1:38:16 AM UTC+11, rickman wrote: >>>>>>> bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote on 12/21/2017 1:55 AM: >>>>>>>> On Thursday, December 21, 2017 at 1:09:52 PM UTC+11, rickman wrote: >>>>>>>>> bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote on 12/20/2017 7:33 PM: >>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, December 21, 2017 at 5:31:13 AM UTC+11, rickman wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> bitrex wrote on 12/20/2017 8:08 AM: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/19/2017 07:44 PM, Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-12-19 16:25, rickman wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joerg wrote on 12/19/2017 6:56 PM: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-12-19 15:46, rickman wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joerg wrote on 12/19/2017 6:01 PM: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-12-19 04:00, bitrex wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> <snip> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> They started a MARC train service to bring people from Frederick, >>>>>>>>> Maryland into Baltimore each day. Last time I looked it had started >>>>>>>>> with about 300 people using the service and still has only 300 people >>>>>>>>> using the service each day. Not worth the bother and the huge start up >>>>>>>>> expense. No justification for the subsidy no matter what you wave your >>>>>>>>> arms about. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Typical cheap-skate approach - offer the minimum service to minimise the capital investment, and when it's too cheap to attract much use, use this as evidence that the service should never have been offered. A bit more bother and a slightly larger start-up expense and it might have been worth the trouble. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have no idea what you are talking about. What "minimum" service? The >>>>>>> *demand* for train transport is only 300 per day. The trains have empty >>>>>>> seats every trip. >>>>>> >>>>>> The trains should have empty seats every trip, in the same way that a telephone exchange should be sized to have four spare switching circuits at maximally busy times, because that means that somebody who wants to make the trip/connection when they want to has a 99% chance of finding an empty seat or a free circuit. >>>>> >>>>> Pure bullshit! People buy commuter tickets in advance and so can plan to >>>>> take the train or not depending on room available, just like airline >>>>> flights. Phone circuits are much less useful if you can't get a line when >>>>> you need one. There's no practical way to make reservations for a phone >>>>> line 90% of the time, you pick up the phone when the call is needed. The >>>>> added cost of having adequate capacity is minimal. >>>> >>>> When I was young - which is quite a while ago - people did make reservations for overseas phone calls. >>>> >>>> People do buy commuter tickets in advance - I bought one year tickets for most of the time I was working in Venlo and commuting from Nijmegen, but they are only part of the traffic catered for. >>>> >>>>> Besides, none of this is relevant to the point. A bunch of capital is >>>>> invested with very little in return. >>>> >>>> A very small bunch, from the sound of it, and clearly not enough to cover a service that had any hope of attracting much business. >>> >>> You are talking through your hat. The costs, both operating and startup, >>> were huge compared to the 150 people transported to and from DC each day. >> >> That isn't the interesting question, which is how much more would have to have been spent to set up a real service which could attract more than 150 commuters, and why that wasn't what was spent. > >You haven't said anything about what could be improved. It's easy to >complain things aren't good enough and should be better if you don't say how. > > >>> There's no way around that. It has just never been cost effective or >>> providing benefits in any other useful manner. >> >> Which was probably the whole point - to set up a duff service to show the politicians involved that it was a bad idea. >> >>> Anyone can see express buses would do the job much better and not interfere with the freight rail is best used for transporting. >> >> European railways are happy to mix freight and passenger services, as are the roads themselves. It's stupid to claim that it can't - or shouldn't - be done. > >You like to ignore the extreme differences between the US and Europe. I >don't know how they manage the freight in Europe on tracks carrying regular >passenger trains. It's not easy to squeeze mile long coal and ore trains >going 30 or 40 miles per hour between passenger service that wants to travel >at 60 mph and faster. It's stupid to compare this to highways where all >traffic travels at the same speed. Don't forget, the passenger train has to have priority, which screws up all scheduling on that line. > >>>>> It sounded like a good idea, but the >>>>> reality is that people don't want to take a 2 hour train trip (each way) >>>>> when they can drive in 70 minutes. I couldn't believe how slow the train >>>>> was when I used it. The result is that it has never been used adequately >>>>> and is a major waste of infrastructure. >>>> >>>> The route is 50.2 miles long - in more or less a straight line as measured on a highway. Any train that takes 2 hours to cover that distance has to be stopping at every hamlet on the way. >>> >>> Again, your hat is doing the talking. You spent zero effort researching the >>> train route. Trains don't run on highways, cars do. Trains have to follow >>> the tracks that were laid 150 years ago. >> >> Except that you haven't demonstrated that the rail route is much longer than the highway. The highway wasn't there to get in the way when the track was laid 150 years ago. > >The train tracks were laid to carry train traffic which needs much more >level ground than does autos and trucks. Highways go over hills in as >straight a line as practical or carved through when needed by cuts. >There's also the issue that the roads go from city to city while the >railroad was laid with longer routes in mind. It was common for a new city >to spring up after the rail road came through. Railroad crossings are also an issue. They're much more disruptive than normal intersections (cars and trucks aren't a mile long). > > >> A google search on the string "Frederick Maryland to Baltimore rail route" shows four services a day, three of which do the trip in 70 minutes (rather less than two hours) while the other takes only 65. The rail route seems to be pretty close to perfectly straight. > >Check the trains to DC Union Station which is what I"m talking about. I >screwed up when I said Baltimore. Both cities are about the same distance >from Frederick and I got the name confused. It was the Washington route >that was added with the purchase of the three new trains. It's also >Washington where most of our commuters go. Vermont has the issue in spades. The route they added in the '00s had so few riders that it would have been cheaper to hire each rider his own limo. But the politicians were happy, as was the RR company, since the federal government paid to upgrade their track. >Three trips a day, between 100 and 110 minutes each way. > > >> None of them show how often the train stops en route. >> >> List the stations along the route where the train does stop - you should be able to find that information, even if I can't. > >Numerous, Boyds, Rockville, Dickerson, Gathersburg to name a few. Ultimate >destination is Union station. Then once in DC you have to take the metro to >get to your job. Total time more like 2.5 hours. That's why so few do it. > > >>>> If a train stops at every station, the fact that it can go faster than a car (which has to cope with other traffic) gets thrown away. Setting up an express train schedule takes more effort and organisation, and clearly nobody bothered. >>> >>> Theoretical trains might go faster than cars. >> >> In England, where the train tracks parallel motorways from time to time I've been passed by a train when doing an illegal 90 miles per hour. >> >>> The parts of this route that parallel highways and afford a view show they >>> run about the same speed as non-rush hour traffic or slower even at full >>> speed. >> >> Crummy trains or crappy tracks. US motorway traffic is theoretically limited to 55 miles per hour. French TGV trains are scheduled to run at 200 miles per hour, but they do need special track. That shows how much Slowman knows about the US. It's amazing that he's so "knowledgeable", yet *so* wrong.
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OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-19 07:00 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-12-19 08:37 -0600
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-19 09:49 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-19 10:00 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-19 09:56 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-12-19 08:53 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-19 12:20 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-12-19 14:27 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-12-19 15:24 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-19 18:39 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-19 20:53 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-12-20 10:08 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 13:19 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-12-20 10:32 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-12-20 12:11 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-20 21:52 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-12-21 10:56 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-21 19:24 -0500
Re: Muppets "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-12-19 16:48 -0600
Re: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-19 18:08 -0500
Re: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-19 18:26 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-19 15:01 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-19 18:46 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-19 15:56 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-19 19:25 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-19 16:44 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-19 20:01 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-20 07:59 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 13:07 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-21 10:31 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-21 14:33 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-21 12:00 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-21 16:06 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> - 2017-12-21 12:14 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-12-21 17:58 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-22 12:58 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-12-22 15:21 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-22 16:12 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-12-20 01:32 +0000
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-19 20:40 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-20 08:02 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-12-20 16:47 +0000
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 13:16 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 10:50 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 14:17 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-20 22:00 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-20 08:08 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-20 08:09 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-12-20 09:17 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 13:26 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-21 10:37 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-12-21 10:58 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-21 11:17 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-20 14:14 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 14:18 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-20 14:48 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 16:04 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-20 16:55 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 16:59 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-20 18:30 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 19:40 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-20 22:03 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-21 10:41 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-20 22:03 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Michael A Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> - 2017-12-20 22:38 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-21 10:52 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-21 14:53 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-21 12:32 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-21 19:30 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-21 16:37 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-22 08:57 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-22 10:23 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets Michael A Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> - 2017-12-22 17:23 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-22 14:53 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-22 18:57 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-22 20:10 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Michael A Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> - 2017-12-22 20:57 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-22 19:07 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-22 19:04 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-23 07:39 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-23 15:03 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-23 12:09 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-23 15:17 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-23 15:27 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-23 20:49 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-24 07:50 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-24 16:56 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-24 14:37 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-24 17:51 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-24 15:15 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-24 18:41 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-24 23:33 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-25 05:48 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-25 09:57 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-25 17:29 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets Joseph Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2017-12-25 20:38 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-25 21:23 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-25 18:47 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-12-25 19:09 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets Michael A Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> - 2017-12-26 00:33 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-26 15:13 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-25 22:10 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-25 07:18 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-25 18:25 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-12-29 02:01 +0000
Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-28 21:42 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-28 19:47 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-29 01:04 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-28 23:56 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-25 10:55 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-12-28 21:41 +0000
Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-24 18:39 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-24 07:46 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-24 12:23 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-25 21:57 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-23 20:47 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 13:31 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-12-20 18:36 +0000
Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-20 14:10 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-12-20 12:13 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-20 16:41 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-20 16:42 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-12-20 14:16 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-12-20 22:56 +0000
Re: OT: Muppets whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 15:12 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-12-20 15:26 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-12-20 23:37 +0000
Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-20 18:42 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 16:26 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-12-21 08:45 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-12-21 09:29 +0000
Re: OT: Muppets John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> - 2017-12-20 15:30 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-20 22:08 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-20 18:36 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-20 22:09 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 15:28 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-20 14:02 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-20 16:33 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-20 21:09 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-20 22:55 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-21 09:38 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-21 18:06 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-21 21:59 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-22 02:56 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-22 11:45 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-22 18:02 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-22 22:39 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-22 23:01 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-12-23 09:05 +0000
Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-23 10:04 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Michael A Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> - 2017-12-23 14:00 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-23 20:51 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-23 06:15 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-23 14:38 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-23 17:43 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-23 21:25 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-12-24 09:58 +0000
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-24 08:29 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-24 06:06 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-12-24 17:53 +0000
Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-24 03:41 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-24 09:12 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-24 15:32 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-12-23 08:52 +0000
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-23 14:40 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-12-23 19:49 +0000
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-23 14:55 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-12-23 20:03 +0000
Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-23 17:53 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-12-22 20:49 +0000
Re: OT: Muppets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-12-22 16:26 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-12-22 15:36 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-23 08:19 -0500
Re: OT: Muppets bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-23 06:30 -0800
Re: OT: Muppets bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-23 15:09 -0500
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