Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #148566

Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95

From	Morten Reistad <first@last.navn>
Newsgroups	alt.folklore.computers
Subject	Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95
Date	2015-07-19 23:58 +0200
Organization	Me, Myself and I
Message-ID	<c4jt7c-4i2.ln1@sambook.reistad.name> (permalink)
References	<mo8qku$qq7$1@dont-email.me> <d103rqF92tlU1@mid.individual.net> <4bqs7c-ug1.ln1@sambook.reistad.name> <d12i64Frs2dU1@mid.individual.net>

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In article <d12i64Frs2dU1@mid.individual.net>, kshy <kshy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>"Morten Reistad" <first@last.name> wrote in message 
>news:4bqs7c-ug1.ln1@sambook.reistad.name...
>> In article <d103rqF92tlU1@mid.individual.net>, kshy <kshy@gmail.com> 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>"Morten Reistad" <first@last.name> wrote in message
>>>news:5m5o7c-u4q.ln1@sambook.reistad.name...
>>>> In article <d0r2o7Fp7uU1@mid.individual.net>, kshy <kshy@gmail.com> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"Andrew Swallow" <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:qrudnRRhR4X01zXInZ2dnUU78SmdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>> On 16/07/2015 23:24, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>>> {snip}
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Land, resources, and capital can be thought of as the Rodney
>>>>>>> Dangerfield
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> production - they're the factors of production that "get no respect".
>>>>>>> That's
>>>>>>> because long before Marx came long, people generally had this gut
>>>>>>> feeling
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> there ought to be, by rights, boundless expanses of forests and
>>>>>>> farmland
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> anyone to just go out and take so as to feed his family by his labor.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the Middle Ages aristocrats did not buy land - they rounded up a
>>>>>> group
>>>>>> of men, had a battle and took it from the current holders.
>>>>>
>>>>>That mangles the real story with much of the land.
>>>>
>>>> Yep. it is pretty correct for the first few centuries after
>>>> the Roman collapse in continental Europe though.
>>>
>>>No its not.
>>>
>>>> Until the Kingdom, ruled by Charlamange, got well
>>>> entrenched in power. This was sometime around 791-793.
>>>
>>>The land wasn’t entirely owned by the aristocrats till then.
>>
>> No, more like warlords.
>
>Plenty of it wasn’t owned by aristocrats or warlords.
>
>> Of all kinds, even clergy.
>
>Most clergy were nothing like warlords./
>
>The collapse
>> of the Pax Romanum is probably the biggest disaster our continent has
>> seen within written history.
>
>It wasn’t a disaster at all for quite a bit of europe.
>
>> Go read the Arthurian legends.
>
>Read them long ago thanks.
>
>> We have some reason to place Arthur's
>> court at approx a.d. 525, a mere 115 years after the collapse in
>> Britain, and decades after it happened on the continent.
>
>> If anything indicate total mad-max warlordism, these are it.
>
>Much of europe had nothing like that.

Yes, about half just fell back to subsistence farming and hunter-gathering.
Nothing worth fighting for there.

>> Similar stories exist in Germany and Poland. Go read Bechstein's
>> "fairy tales". They are more about demons and murderers than about
>> fairies.
>
>Just because some fairy story claims something
>doesn’t mean it happened like that.

They tell you a lot about the "zeitgeist". How it was felt for
the common people. The message from these "fairy" tales i : Not good.
Not good at all.

>>>> After that, you had to ask the King's permission first before you went 
>>>> on
>>>> such warring missions.
>>>
>>>That mangles the real story too.
>>
>> After Charlemagne you, the aristocrat, held your land on behalf of the 
>> King.
>
>That wasn’t universally true right thruout the whole of europe.
>
>> You could do a lot as you wanted, but attacking someone not on your land 
>> was
>> the perogative of the King.
>
>That wasn’t universally true right thruout the whole of europe.

There was a transition period for western europe which can be deemed complete
sometime between 1000 (Iceland goes Christian and abandons the Viking raids)
and 1070-2 (Sweden and Norway gets new legislation, this time dictated by the
King, not negotiated through the Things). These were the last holdouts. 

>When some like the welsh decided they didn’t like what
>those unspeakable normans were doing to their country,
>they didn’t ask any king for permission to attack them.
>
>> Doing so on your own would have you drawn and
>> quartered in no time flat.
>
>Didn’t happen like that in britain after the normans showed up.
>
>> Unless you could depose the King and take the
>> power yourself, which happened; but rarely.
>
>Happened quite a bit in Britain.
>
>> And you would do so in your own right,
>> not to take some foreign land.
>
>Have fun explaining the East India Company in India.

Well, for one, they are post-middle-age by about two centuries, for the
second the DID have explicit permission from King and Parliament. And when
they did not, they did a lot to work to get it.

>> This changed radically in the last decade of the 700s. We have
>> records of it giving great bouts of anxiety in the Arab world.
>
>> Kings were not peaceful. At all. But by then the King raised regular 
>> armies
>> and navies, much as we know them today.
>
>And it wasn’t just kings that did that, most obviously with the East India 
>Company.

Or Stora Kopparberg, the first real limited company in the world, founded
1272. By Royal Assent, i.e. They DID ask the King.

>>>> This date was a little later in the outskirts of Europe, but Kingdoms 
>>>> were
>>>> well established in Norway by 900, and the Republic in Iceland around 60
>>>> years
>>>> after that. If you went on a war footing without the consent of the King
>>>> you
>>>> were declared a lawless, at best. This is how the Viking age fell out of
>>>> relevance a few decades into the second millennium.
>>>
>>>Sure, but it wasn’t like that in all of the rest of europe.
>>
>> I use the Vikings because they were on the periphery of Europe.
>
>They weren't really with the Normans alone.
>
>> Denmark ended the Viking age for all practical purposes ca 960, Iceland in
>> 1000, and the rest of Scandinavia saw it fizzle out as the Kings became 
>> the prime
>> landholders up until 1070, when king Olav 3rd, "Kyrre" (meaning the 
>> peaceful)
>> made legislation that saw the end of that. He even started the outlawing 
>> of
>> slavery, a practice that was finally ended with the end of our civil war 
>> in 1171.
>>
>> The last country in Europe to follow on was probably Sweden, and that was
>> a done deal ca 1070 too.
>>
>> So we see a continent plunged into chaos and misery ca ad 485,
>
>Much of europe wasn’t anything like that.
>
>seeing the
>> first embryonic kingdoms, or rather amalgamated fiefdoms ca 550, an 
>> internectine
>> period from there until a single ruler emerged ca 795, crowned emperor 
>> 25.12.800,
>> and this set of followon kingdoms spread the Single King dogma to the rest 
>> of
>> Europe during the next 200 years. By 960 every country had a king and was
>> properly incorporated, and then the last internectine warriers, the 
>> Vikings,
>> had nowhere to hide any longer.
>
>The Normans didn’t need to hide.
>
>> The middle ages is a very diverse period,
>
>And is was never anything like you claimed on
>the permission of the king quite a bit of the time.
>
>and had the development of the
>> god-given right to Kings well entrenched. We only managed to shed this 
>> about
>> a century ago.
>
>That mangles the real story too,  most obviously with Magna Carta.
>
>>>>>They
>>>>>> also expected the peasants to work on the baron's land for free.
>>>>>
>>>>>And so does that. And it was never just barons and peasants either.
>>>>
>>>> Add clergy, nobility, crafts/guildsmen, burghers (of the cities) and 
>>>> lots
>>>> more. The Middle Ages had a lot more complicated social hierarchy than
>>>> what
>>>> we are used to.
>>>
>>>Yeah, that's what I meant.
>>
>> It is also a 1000-year period lumped into one.
>
>So Andrew's original was just plain wrong, as I said.
>
>> I would rather divert this
>> into these periods, they are a lot more accurate :
>>
>> 485-800     : Post-collapse period (fall of Rome-Crowning of Charlemagne)
>> 800-1215    : Early kingdom period (Charlemagne-Magna Carta)
>> 1215-1349   : High kingdom period (Magna Carta-Black Death)
>> 1349-1453   : The big collapse (until fall of Bysants)
>> 1453-       : Start of Rennesanse
>> 1582-       : Britain overtakes Spain as leading country
>> 1618-1648   : 30years war
>
>It isn't anywhere like as neat and tidy as that either,
>particularly on the ownership of land being discussed.

Was that the OT? I replied to the CONQUEST of lands. 

Ownership was (and is) a lot more complicated, with at least 4 wildly
different legal doctrines and at least 100 different jurisdictions, just
within the EU proper.

>> It is only the Westphalen peace (after the 30years war) that we see the
>> blueprint for a modern Europe.

-- mrr

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Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-15 19:16 -0500
  Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-16 12:47 -0500
    Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-17 05:56 +1000
    Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2015-07-16 20:06 +0000
      Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2015-07-17 10:27 +0100
      Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-17 12:39 +0000
        Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2015-07-17 13:57 +0000
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-17 11:05 -0500
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-18 06:38 +1000
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-07-17 22:04 +0000
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                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-18 10:51 +1000
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-19 08:39 +1000
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      Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-07-16 15:24 -0700
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          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-07-17 01:23 +0000
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        Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-17 01:20 +0100
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            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Morten Reistad <first@last.name> - 2015-07-17 22:37 +0200
              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-19 08:50 +1000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 07:07 +1000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Morten Reistad <first@last.navn> - 2015-07-19 23:58 +0200
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 08:52 +1000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 14:32 +1000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-20 11:45 +0100
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                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 greymausg <maus@mail.com> - 2015-07-22 10:41 +0000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2015-07-22 16:02 +0000
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        Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-07-17 07:39 -0700
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          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-18 16:08 +0100
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2015-07-18 12:28 -0500
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-18 13:07 -0500
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-18 13:13 -0500
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-19 07:52 +1000
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            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-20 13:29 +0000
              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-07-20 14:41 +0100
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                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-20 11:34 -0500
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                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-20 14:41 -0500
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-21 08:35 +1000
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                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-27 09:04 -0500
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-28 09:25 -0500
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-29 11:59 +0000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-07-29 13:35 +0000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-29 08:45 -0500
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-07-29 10:28 -0400
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-07-29 13:53 -0700
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-21 10:48 -0500
              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-07-21 12:54 +0200
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-07-21 08:00 -0700
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-21 10:45 -0500
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-21 10:41 -0500
        Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-19 09:52 +1000
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 07:24 +1000
        Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-19 13:25 +0000
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 06:34 +1000

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