Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #148571

Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95

From	"kshy" <kshy@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	alt.folklore.computers
Subject	Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95
Date	2015-07-20 08:52 +1000
Message-ID	<d12o2bFtacfU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	<mo8qku$qq7$1@dont-email.me> <d103rqF92tlU1@mid.individual.net> <4bqs7c-ug1.ln1@sambook.reistad.name> <d12i64Frs2dU1@mid.individual.net> <c4jt7c-4i2.ln1@sambook.reistad.name>

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"Morten Reistad" <first@last.navn> wrote in message 
news:c4jt7c-4i2.ln1@sambook.reistad.name...
> In article <d12i64Frs2dU1@mid.individual.net>, kshy <kshy@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>"Morten Reistad" <first@last.name> wrote in message
>>news:4bqs7c-ug1.ln1@sambook.reistad.name...
>>> In article <d103rqF92tlU1@mid.individual.net>, kshy <kshy@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Morten Reistad" <first@last.name> wrote in message
>>>>news:5m5o7c-u4q.ln1@sambook.reistad.name...
>>>>> In article <d0r2o7Fp7uU1@mid.individual.net>, kshy <kshy@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Andrew Swallow" <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:qrudnRRhR4X01zXInZ2dnUU78SmdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>> On 16/07/2015 23:24, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>>>> {snip}
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Land, resources, and capital can be thought of as the Rodney
>>>>>>>> Dangerfield
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> production - they're the factors of production that "get no 
>>>>>>>> respect".
>>>>>>>> That's
>>>>>>>> because long before Marx came long, people generally had this gut
>>>>>>>> feeling
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> there ought to be, by rights, boundless expanses of forests and
>>>>>>>> farmland
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> anyone to just go out and take so as to feed his family by his 
>>>>>>>> labor.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the Middle Ages aristocrats did not buy land - they rounded up a
>>>>>>> group
>>>>>>> of men, had a battle and took it from the current holders.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>That mangles the real story with much of the land.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yep. it is pretty correct for the first few centuries after
>>>>> the Roman collapse in continental Europe though.
>>>>
>>>>No its not.
>>>>
>>>>> Until the Kingdom, ruled by Charlamange, got well
>>>>> entrenched in power. This was sometime around 791-793.
>>>>
>>>>The land wasn’t entirely owned by the aristocrats till then.
>>>
>>> No, more like warlords.
>>
>>Plenty of it wasn’t owned by aristocrats or warlords.
>>
>>> Of all kinds, even clergy.
>>
>>Most clergy were nothing like warlords./
>>
>>The collapse
>>> of the Pax Romanum is probably the biggest disaster our continent has
>>> seen within written history.
>>
>>It wasn’t a disaster at all for quite a bit of europe.
>>
>>> Go read the Arthurian legends.
>>
>>Read them long ago thanks.
>>
>>> We have some reason to place Arthur's
>>> court at approx a.d. 525, a mere 115 years after the collapse in
>>> Britain, and decades after it happened on the continent.
>>
>>> If anything indicate total mad-max warlordism, these are it.
>>
>>Much of europe had nothing like that.
>
> Yes, about half just fell back to subsistence farming

There is no evidence that local trade dropped significantly.

> and hunter-gathering.

There is no evidence that many at all reverted to hunter
gathering except with fishing and they didn’t revert to
fishing, they just keep doing what fishing they had been
doing before the romans showed up.

> Nothing worth fighting for there.

Yes, there wasn’t a lot of fighting even before
the romans showed up in much of europe.

>>> Similar stories exist in Germany and Poland. Go read Bechstein's
>>> "fairy tales". They are more about demons and murderers than about
>>> fairies.
>>
>>Just because some fairy story claims something
>>doesn’t mean it happened like that.
>
> They tell you a lot about the "zeitgeist".

No they don’t. Just like the current vampire horror stories don’t.

There was never any real risk of any wolf showing up and coming
into your house by subterfuge, that was always just an example
of how florid the human imagination can get at times, like with
werewolves, vampires, fairys, leprechauns, unicorns, frogs that
turn into princes when kissed and people whose coaches turn
into pumpkins at midnight, etc etc etc.

> How it was felt for the common people. The message
> from these "fairy" tales i : Not good. Not good at all.

There is no such message. ALL societys have fairy storys they
tell their kids because most kids love a good scary story told
in a situation where they know they are completely safe.

>>>>> After that, you had to ask the King's permission first before you went
>>>>> on
>>>>> such warring missions.
>>>>
>>>>That mangles the real story too.
>>>
>>> After Charlemagne you, the aristocrat, held your land on behalf of the
>>> King.
>>
>>That wasn’t universally true right thruout the whole of europe.
>>
>>> You could do a lot as you wanted, but attacking someone not on your land
>>> was
>>> the perogative of the King.
>>
>>That wasn’t universally true right thruout the whole of europe.
>
> There was a transition period for western europe which can be deemed 
> complete
> sometime between 1000 (Iceland goes Christian and abandons the Viking 
> raids)
> and 1070-2 (Sweden and Norway gets new legislation, this time dictated by 
> the
> King, not negotiated through the Things). These were the last holdouts.

It was nothing like complete by then, most obviously with what
the worst organised groups like the welsh and the scots got up
to LONG after that. They didn’t bother to get the permission of
any damned king when they decided to do what they felt like doing.

>>When some like the welsh decided they didn’t like what
>>those unspeakable normans were doing to their country,
>>they didn’t ask any king for permission to attack them.
>>
>>> Doing so on your own would have you drawn and
>>> quartered in no time flat.
>>
>>Didn’t happen like that in britain after the normans showed up.
>>
>>> Unless you could depose the King and take the
>>> power yourself, which happened; but rarely.
>>
>>Happened quite a bit in Britain.
>>
>>> And you would do so in your own right,
>>> not to take some foreign land.
>>
>>Have fun explaining the East India Company in India.
>
> Well, for one, they are post-middle-age by about two centuries,

Sure, but that sort of thing happened in the
middle ages too, just not on such a grand scale.

for the
> second the DID have explicit permission from King and Parliament.

No they did not, that came later when
it was clear how successful that was.

And when
> they did not, they did a lot to work to get it.

Again, that came later.

>>> This changed radically in the last decade of the 700s. We have
>>> records of it giving great bouts of anxiety in the Arab world.
>>
>>> Kings were not peaceful. At all. But by then the King raised regular
>>> armies
>>> and navies, much as we know them today.
>>
>>And it wasn’t just kings that did that, most obviously with the East India
>>Company.
>
> Or Stora Kopparberg, the first real limited company in the world, founded
> 1272. By Royal Assent, i.e. They DID ask the King.

Plenty didn’t.

>>>>> This date was a little later in the outskirts of Europe, but Kingdoms
>>>>> were
>>>>> well established in Norway by 900, and the Republic in Iceland around 
>>>>> 60
>>>>> years
>>>>> after that. If you went on a war footing without the consent of the 
>>>>> King
>>>>> you
>>>>> were declared a lawless, at best. This is how the Viking age fell out 
>>>>> of
>>>>> relevance a few decades into the second millennium.
>>>>
>>>>Sure, but it wasn’t like that in all of the rest of europe.
>>>
>>> I use the Vikings because they were on the periphery of Europe.
>>
>>They weren't really with the Normans alone.
>>
>>> Denmark ended the Viking age for all practical purposes ca 960, Iceland 
>>> in
>>> 1000, and the rest of Scandinavia saw it fizzle out as the Kings became
>>> the prime
>>> landholders up until 1070, when king Olav 3rd, "Kyrre" (meaning the
>>> peaceful)
>>> made legislation that saw the end of that. He even started the outlawing
>>> of
>>> slavery, a practice that was finally ended with the end of our civil war
>>> in 1171.
>>>
>>> The last country in Europe to follow on was probably Sweden, and that 
>>> was
>>> a done deal ca 1070 too.
>>>
>>> So we see a continent plunged into chaos and misery ca ad 485,
>>
>>Much of europe wasn’t anything like that.
>>
>>seeing the
>>> first embryonic kingdoms, or rather amalgamated fiefdoms ca 550, an
>>> internectine
>>> period from there until a single ruler emerged ca 795, crowned emperor
>>> 25.12.800,
>>> and this set of followon kingdoms spread the Single King dogma to the 
>>> rest
>>> of
>>> Europe during the next 200 years. By 960 every country had a king and 
>>> was
>>> properly incorporated, and then the last internectine warriers, the
>>> Vikings,
>>> had nowhere to hide any longer.
>>
>>The Normans didn’t need to hide.
>>
>>> The middle ages is a very diverse period,
>>
>>And is was never anything like you claimed on
>>the permission of the king quite a bit of the time.
>>
>>and had the development of the
>>> god-given right to Kings well entrenched. We only managed to shed this
>>> about
>>> a century ago.
>>
>>That mangles the real story too,  most obviously with Magna Carta.
>>
>>>>>>They
>>>>>>> also expected the peasants to work on the baron's land for free.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And so does that. And it was never just barons and peasants either.
>>>>>
>>>>> Add clergy, nobility, crafts/guildsmen, burghers (of the cities) and
>>>>> lots
>>>>> more. The Middle Ages had a lot more complicated social hierarchy than
>>>>> what
>>>>> we are used to.
>>>>
>>>>Yeah, that's what I meant.
>>>
>>> It is also a 1000-year period lumped into one.
>>
>>So Andrew's original was just plain wrong, as I said.
>>
>>> I would rather divert this
>>> into these periods, they are a lot more accurate :
>>>
>>> 485-800     : Post-collapse period (fall of Rome-Crowning of 
>>> Charlemagne)
>>> 800-1215    : Early kingdom period (Charlemagne-Magna Carta)
>>> 1215-1349   : High kingdom period (Magna Carta-Black Death)
>>> 1349-1453   : The big collapse (until fall of Bysants)
>>> 1453-       : Start of Rennesanse
>>> 1582-       : Britain overtakes Spain as leading country
>>> 1618-1648   : 30years war
>>
>>It isn't anywhere like as neat and tidy as that either,
>>particularly on the ownership of land being discussed.
>
> Was that the OT? I replied to the CONQUEST of lands.

You replied to my comments about Andrew's claim that
that all land ownership was about taking land by force.

It was never just done like that.

> Ownership was (and is) a lot more complicated, with at least 4 wildly
> different legal doctrines and at least 100 different jurisdictions, just
> within the EU proper.

Which is what I said in more words.

>>> It is only the Westphalen peace (after the 30years war) that we see the
>>> blueprint for a modern Europe.

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Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-15 19:16 -0500
  Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-16 12:47 -0500
    Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-17 05:56 +1000
    Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2015-07-16 20:06 +0000
      Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2015-07-17 10:27 +0100
      Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-17 12:39 +0000
        Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2015-07-17 13:57 +0000
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-17 11:05 -0500
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-18 06:38 +1000
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-07-17 22:04 +0000
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                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-18 10:51 +1000
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-19 08:39 +1000
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        Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-17 01:20 +0100
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            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Morten Reistad <first@last.name> - 2015-07-17 22:37 +0200
              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-19 08:50 +1000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 07:07 +1000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Morten Reistad <first@last.navn> - 2015-07-19 23:58 +0200
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 08:52 +1000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 14:32 +1000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-20 11:45 +0100
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                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 greymausg <maus@mail.com> - 2015-07-22 10:41 +0000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2015-07-22 16:02 +0000
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        Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-07-17 07:39 -0700
        Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-17 10:19 -0500
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-18 16:08 +0100
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2015-07-18 12:28 -0500
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-18 13:07 -0500
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-18 13:13 -0500
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-19 07:52 +1000
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Morten Reistad <first@last.navn> - 2015-07-19 10:07 +0200
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-20 13:29 +0000
              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-07-20 14:41 +0100
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-21 12:53 +0000
              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2015-07-20 10:01 -0500
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              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-20 11:46 -0500
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                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-07-20 19:05 +0000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-21 08:06 +1000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-20 14:41 -0500
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              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 06:50 +1000
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                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 22:11 -0500
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 10:22 -0500
        Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-18 06:27 +1000
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Morten Reistad <first@last.name> - 2015-07-18 22:42 +0200
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 08:26 +1000
              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Morten Reistad <first@last.navn> - 2015-07-20 13:35 +0200
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              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-20 13:29 +0000
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            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-07-20 10:41 -0500
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            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2015-07-19 11:25 -0500
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 06:28 +1000
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 greymausg <maus@mail.com> - 2015-07-20 07:55 +0000
              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 18:21 +1000
              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-20 10:59 -0500
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-20 12:50 -0500
              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-21 12:53 +0000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-07-21 08:49 -0500
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-21 10:50 -0500
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-22 12:20 +0000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-07-22 13:56 +0000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-23 12:22 +0000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-24 05:54 +1000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-24 11:52 +0000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-07-24 08:39 -0700
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 sidd@situ.com (sidd) - 2015-07-22 14:31 -0400
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-23 12:22 +0000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-24 05:51 +1000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-27 09:04 -0500
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-28 09:25 -0500
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-29 11:59 +0000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-07-29 13:35 +0000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-29 08:45 -0500
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-07-29 10:28 -0400
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-07-29 13:53 -0700
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-21 10:48 -0500
              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-07-21 12:54 +0200
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-07-21 08:00 -0700
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-21 10:45 -0500
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-21 10:41 -0500
        Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-19 09:52 +1000
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 07:24 +1000
        Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-19 13:25 +0000
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 06:34 +1000

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