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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #148579
| From | "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | alt.folklore.computers |
| Subject | Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 |
| Date | 2015-07-20 14:32 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <d13bu9F31q2U1@mid.individual.net> (permalink) |
| References | <mo8qku$qq7$1@dont-email.me> <d103rqF92tlU1@mid.individual.net> <4bqs7c-ug1.ln1@sambook.reistad.name> <d12i64Frs2dU1@mid.individual.net> <c4jt7c-4i2.ln1@sambook.reistad.name> |
"Morten Reistad" <first@last.navn> wrote in message
news:c4jt7c-4i2.ln1@sambook.reistad.name...
> In article <d12i64Frs2dU1@mid.individual.net>, kshy <kshy@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>"Morten Reistad" <first@last.name> wrote in message
>>news:4bqs7c-ug1.ln1@sambook.reistad.name...
>>> In article <d103rqF92tlU1@mid.individual.net>, kshy <kshy@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Morten Reistad" <first@last.name> wrote in message
>>>>news:5m5o7c-u4q.ln1@sambook.reistad.name...
>>>>> In article <d0r2o7Fp7uU1@mid.individual.net>, kshy <kshy@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Andrew Swallow" <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:qrudnRRhR4X01zXInZ2dnUU78SmdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>> On 16/07/2015 23:24, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>>>> {snip}
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Land, resources, and capital can be thought of as the Rodney
>>>>>>>> Dangerfield
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> production - they're the factors of production that "get no
>>>>>>>> respect".
>>>>>>>> That's
>>>>>>>> because long before Marx came long, people generally had this gut
>>>>>>>> feeling
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> there ought to be, by rights, boundless expanses of forests and
>>>>>>>> farmland
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> anyone to just go out and take so as to feed his family by his
>>>>>>>> labor.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the Middle Ages aristocrats did not buy land - they rounded up a
>>>>>>> group
>>>>>>> of men, had a battle and took it from the current holders.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>That mangles the real story with much of the land.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yep. it is pretty correct for the first few centuries after
>>>>> the Roman collapse in continental Europe though.
>>>>
>>>>No its not.
>>>>
>>>>> Until the Kingdom, ruled by Charlamange, got well
>>>>> entrenched in power. This was sometime around 791-793.
>>>>
>>>>The land wasn’t entirely owned by the aristocrats till then.
>>>
>>> No, more like warlords.
>>
>>Plenty of it wasn’t owned by aristocrats or warlords.
>>
>>> Of all kinds, even clergy.
>>
>>Most clergy were nothing like warlords./
>>
>>The collapse
>>> of the Pax Romanum is probably the biggest disaster our continent has
>>> seen within written history.
>>
>>It wasn’t a disaster at all for quite a bit of europe.
>>
>>> Go read the Arthurian legends.
>>
>>Read them long ago thanks.
>>
>>> We have some reason to place Arthur's
>>> court at approx a.d. 525, a mere 115 years after the collapse in
>>> Britain, and decades after it happened on the continent.
>>
>>> If anything indicate total mad-max warlordism, these are it.
>>
>>Much of europe had nothing like that.
>
> Yes, about half just fell back to subsistence farming and
> hunter-gathering.
> Nothing worth fighting for there.
>
>>> Similar stories exist in Germany and Poland. Go read Bechstein's
>>> "fairy tales". They are more about demons and murderers than about
>>> fairies.
>>
>>Just because some fairy story claims something
>>doesn’t mean it happened like that.
>
> They tell you a lot about the "zeitgeist". How it was felt for
> the common people. The message from these "fairy" tales i : Not good.
> Not good at all.
>
>>>>> After that, you had to ask the King's permission first before you went
>>>>> on
>>>>> such warring missions.
>>>>
>>>>That mangles the real story too.
>>>
>>> After Charlemagne you, the aristocrat, held your land on behalf of the
>>> King.
>>
>>That wasn’t universally true right thruout the whole of europe.
>>
>>> You could do a lot as you wanted, but attacking someone not on your land
>>> was
>>> the perogative of the King.
>>
>>That wasn’t universally true right thruout the whole of europe.
And nothing like what happened with the Norman invasion of England and later
Ireland.
> There was a transition period for western europe which can be deemed
> complete
> sometime between 1000 (Iceland goes Christian and abandons the Viking
> raids)
> and 1070-2 (Sweden and Norway gets new legislation, this time dictated by
> the
> King, not negotiated through the Things). These were the last holdouts.
No they were not, most obviously with the Normans.
>>When some like the welsh decided they didn’t like what
>>those unspeakable normans were doing to their country,
>>they didn’t ask any king for permission to attack them.
>>
>>> Doing so on your own would have you drawn and
>>> quartered in no time flat.
>>
>>Didn’t happen like that in britain after the normans showed up.
>>
>>> Unless you could depose the King and take the
>>> power yourself, which happened; but rarely.
>>
>>Happened quite a bit in Britain.
>>
>>> And you would do so in your own right,
>>> not to take some foreign land.
>>
>>Have fun explaining the East India Company in India.
>
> Well, for one, they are post-middle-age by about two centuries, for the
> second the DID have explicit permission from King and Parliament. And when
> they did not, they did a lot to work to get it.
>
>>> This changed radically in the last decade of the 700s. We have
>>> records of it giving great bouts of anxiety in the Arab world.
>>
>>> Kings were not peaceful. At all. But by then the King raised regular
>>> armies
>>> and navies, much as we know them today.
>>
>>And it wasn’t just kings that did that, most obviously with the East India
>>Company.
>
> Or Stora Kopparberg, the first real limited company in the world, founded
> 1272. By Royal Assent, i.e. They DID ask the King.
>
>>>>> This date was a little later in the outskirts of Europe, but Kingdoms
>>>>> were
>>>>> well established in Norway by 900, and the Republic in Iceland around
>>>>> 60
>>>>> years
>>>>> after that. If you went on a war footing without the consent of the
>>>>> King
>>>>> you
>>>>> were declared a lawless, at best. This is how the Viking age fell out
>>>>> of
>>>>> relevance a few decades into the second millennium.
>>>>
>>>>Sure, but it wasn’t like that in all of the rest of europe.
>>>
>>> I use the Vikings because they were on the periphery of Europe.
>>
>>They weren't really with the Normans alone.
>>
>>> Denmark ended the Viking age for all practical purposes ca 960, Iceland
>>> in
>>> 1000, and the rest of Scandinavia saw it fizzle out as the Kings became
>>> the prime
>>> landholders up until 1070, when king Olav 3rd, "Kyrre" (meaning the
>>> peaceful)
>>> made legislation that saw the end of that. He even started the outlawing
>>> of
>>> slavery, a practice that was finally ended with the end of our civil war
>>> in 1171.
>>>
>>> The last country in Europe to follow on was probably Sweden, and that
>>> was
>>> a done deal ca 1070 too.
>>>
>>> So we see a continent plunged into chaos and misery ca ad 485,
>>
>>Much of europe wasn’t anything like that.
>>
>>seeing the
>>> first embryonic kingdoms, or rather amalgamated fiefdoms ca 550, an
>>> internectine
>>> period from there until a single ruler emerged ca 795, crowned emperor
>>> 25.12.800,
>>> and this set of followon kingdoms spread the Single King dogma to the
>>> rest
>>> of
>>> Europe during the next 200 years. By 960 every country had a king and
>>> was
>>> properly incorporated, and then the last internectine warriers, the
>>> Vikings,
>>> had nowhere to hide any longer.
>>
>>The Normans didn’t need to hide.
>>
>>> The middle ages is a very diverse period,
>>
>>And is was never anything like you claimed on
>>the permission of the king quite a bit of the time.
>>
>>and had the development of the
>>> god-given right to Kings well entrenched. We only managed to shed this
>>> about
>>> a century ago.
>>
>>That mangles the real story too, most obviously with Magna Carta.
>>
>>>>>>They
>>>>>>> also expected the peasants to work on the baron's land for free.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And so does that. And it was never just barons and peasants either.
>>>>>
>>>>> Add clergy, nobility, crafts/guildsmen, burghers (of the cities) and
>>>>> lots
>>>>> more. The Middle Ages had a lot more complicated social hierarchy than
>>>>> what
>>>>> we are used to.
>>>>
>>>>Yeah, that's what I meant.
>>>
>>> It is also a 1000-year period lumped into one.
>>
>>So Andrew's original was just plain wrong, as I said.
>>
>>> I would rather divert this
>>> into these periods, they are a lot more accurate :
>>>
>>> 485-800 : Post-collapse period (fall of Rome-Crowning of
>>> Charlemagne)
>>> 800-1215 : Early kingdom period (Charlemagne-Magna Carta)
>>> 1215-1349 : High kingdom period (Magna Carta-Black Death)
>>> 1349-1453 : The big collapse (until fall of Bysants)
>>> 1453- : Start of Rennesanse
>>> 1582- : Britain overtakes Spain as leading country
>>> 1618-1648 : 30years war
>>
>>It isn't anywhere like as neat and tidy as that either,
>>particularly on the ownership of land being discussed.
>
> Was that the OT? I replied to the CONQUEST of lands.
>
> Ownership was (and is) a lot more complicated, with at least 4 wildly
> different legal doctrines and at least 100 different jurisdictions, just
> within the EU proper.
>
>>> It is only the Westphalen peace (after the 30years war) that we see the
>>> blueprint for a modern Europe.
>
> -- mrr
>
>
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Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 sidd@situ.com (sidd) - 2015-07-22 14:31 -0400
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-23 12:22 +0000
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-24 05:51 +1000
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-27 09:04 -0500
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-28 09:25 -0500
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-29 11:59 +0000
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-07-29 13:35 +0000
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-29 08:45 -0500
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-07-29 10:28 -0400
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-30 11:50 +0000
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-07-29 13:53 -0700
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-21 10:48 -0500
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-07-21 12:54 +0200
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-07-21 08:00 -0700
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-21 10:45 -0500
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-21 10:41 -0500
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-19 09:52 +1000
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 07:24 +1000
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-19 13:25 +0000
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 06:34 +1000
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