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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #148553
| From | "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | alt.folklore.computers |
| Subject | Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 |
| Date | 2015-07-20 07:07 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <d12i64Frs2dU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink) |
| References | <mo8qku$qq7$1@dont-email.me> <d0r2o7Fp7uU1@mid.individual.net> <5m5o7c-u4q.ln1@sambook.reistad.name> <d103rqF92tlU1@mid.individual.net> <4bqs7c-ug1.ln1@sambook.reistad.name> |
"Morten Reistad" <first@last.name> wrote in message
news:4bqs7c-ug1.ln1@sambook.reistad.name...
> In article <d103rqF92tlU1@mid.individual.net>, kshy <kshy@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>"Morten Reistad" <first@last.name> wrote in message
>>news:5m5o7c-u4q.ln1@sambook.reistad.name...
>>> In article <d0r2o7Fp7uU1@mid.individual.net>, kshy <kshy@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Andrew Swallow" <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:qrudnRRhR4X01zXInZ2dnUU78SmdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>> On 16/07/2015 23:24, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>> {snip}
>>>>>
>>>>>> Land, resources, and capital can be thought of as the Rodney
>>>>>> Dangerfield
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> production - they're the factors of production that "get no respect".
>>>>>> That's
>>>>>> because long before Marx came long, people generally had this gut
>>>>>> feeling
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> there ought to be, by rights, boundless expanses of forests and
>>>>>> farmland
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> anyone to just go out and take so as to feed his family by his labor.
>>>>>>
>>>>> In the Middle Ages aristocrats did not buy land - they rounded up a
>>>>> group
>>>>> of men, had a battle and took it from the current holders.
>>>>
>>>>That mangles the real story with much of the land.
>>>
>>> Yep. it is pretty correct for the first few centuries after
>>> the Roman collapse in continental Europe though.
>>
>>No its not.
>>
>>> Until the Kingdom, ruled by Charlamange, got well
>>> entrenched in power. This was sometime around 791-793.
>>
>>The land wasn’t entirely owned by the aristocrats till then.
>
> No, more like warlords.
Plenty of it wasn’t owned by aristocrats or warlords.
> Of all kinds, even clergy.
Most clergy were nothing like warlords./
The collapse
> of the Pax Romanum is probably the biggest disaster our continent has
> seen within written history.
It wasn’t a disaster at all for quite a bit of europe.
> Go read the Arthurian legends.
Read them long ago thanks.
> We have some reason to place Arthur's
> court at approx a.d. 525, a mere 115 years after the collapse in
> Britain, and decades after it happened on the continent.
> If anything indicate total mad-max warlordism, these are it.
Much of europe had nothing like that.
> Similar stories exist in Germany and Poland. Go read Bechstein's
> "fairy tales". They are more about demons and murderers than about
> fairies.
Just because some fairy story claims something
doesn’t mean it happened like that.
>>> After that, you had to ask the King's permission first before you went
>>> on
>>> such warring missions.
>>
>>That mangles the real story too.
>
> After Charlemagne you, the aristocrat, held your land on behalf of the
> King.
That wasn’t universally true right thruout the whole of europe.
> You could do a lot as you wanted, but attacking someone not on your land
> was
> the perogative of the King.
That wasn’t universally true right thruout the whole of europe.
When some like the welsh decided they didn’t like what
those unspeakable normans were doing to their country,
they didn’t ask any king for permission to attack them.
> Doing so on your own would have you drawn and
> quartered in no time flat.
Didn’t happen like that in britain after the normans showed up.
> Unless you could depose the King and take the
> power yourself, which happened; but rarely.
Happened quite a bit in Britain.
> And you would do so in your own right,
> not to take some foreign land.
Have fun explaining the East India Company in India.
> This changed radically in the last decade of the 700s. We have
> records of it giving great bouts of anxiety in the Arab world.
> Kings were not peaceful. At all. But by then the King raised regular
> armies
> and navies, much as we know them today.
And it wasn’t just kings that did that, most obviously with the East India
Company.
>>> This date was a little later in the outskirts of Europe, but Kingdoms
>>> were
>>> well established in Norway by 900, and the Republic in Iceland around 60
>>> years
>>> after that. If you went on a war footing without the consent of the King
>>> you
>>> were declared a lawless, at best. This is how the Viking age fell out of
>>> relevance a few decades into the second millennium.
>>
>>Sure, but it wasn’t like that in all of the rest of europe.
>
> I use the Vikings because they were on the periphery of Europe.
They weren't really with the Normans alone.
> Denmark ended the Viking age for all practical purposes ca 960, Iceland in
> 1000, and the rest of Scandinavia saw it fizzle out as the Kings became
> the prime
> landholders up until 1070, when king Olav 3rd, "Kyrre" (meaning the
> peaceful)
> made legislation that saw the end of that. He even started the outlawing
> of
> slavery, a practice that was finally ended with the end of our civil war
> in 1171.
>
> The last country in Europe to follow on was probably Sweden, and that was
> a done deal ca 1070 too.
>
> So we see a continent plunged into chaos and misery ca ad 485,
Much of europe wasn’t anything like that.
seeing the
> first embryonic kingdoms, or rather amalgamated fiefdoms ca 550, an
> internectine
> period from there until a single ruler emerged ca 795, crowned emperor
> 25.12.800,
> and this set of followon kingdoms spread the Single King dogma to the rest
> of
> Europe during the next 200 years. By 960 every country had a king and was
> properly incorporated, and then the last internectine warriers, the
> Vikings,
> had nowhere to hide any longer.
The Normans didn’t need to hide.
> The middle ages is a very diverse period,
And is was never anything like you claimed on
the permission of the king quite a bit of the time.
and had the development of the
> god-given right to Kings well entrenched. We only managed to shed this
> about
> a century ago.
That mangles the real story too, most obviously with Magna Carta.
>>>>They
>>>>> also expected the peasants to work on the baron's land for free.
>>>>
>>>>And so does that. And it was never just barons and peasants either.
>>>
>>> Add clergy, nobility, crafts/guildsmen, burghers (of the cities) and
>>> lots
>>> more. The Middle Ages had a lot more complicated social hierarchy than
>>> what
>>> we are used to.
>>
>>Yeah, that's what I meant.
>
> It is also a 1000-year period lumped into one.
So Andrew's original was just plain wrong, as I said.
> I would rather divert this
> into these periods, they are a lot more accurate :
>
> 485-800 : Post-collapse period (fall of Rome-Crowning of Charlemagne)
> 800-1215 : Early kingdom period (Charlemagne-Magna Carta)
> 1215-1349 : High kingdom period (Magna Carta-Black Death)
> 1349-1453 : The big collapse (until fall of Bysants)
> 1453- : Start of Rennesanse
> 1582- : Britain overtakes Spain as leading country
> 1618-1648 : 30years war
It isn't anywhere like as neat and tidy as that either,
particularly on the ownership of land being discussed.
> It is only the Westphalen peace (after the 30years war) that we see the
> blueprint for a modern Europe.
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Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-16 12:47 -0500
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-17 05:56 +1000
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2015-07-16 20:06 +0000
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2015-07-17 10:27 +0100
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-17 12:39 +0000
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2015-07-17 13:57 +0000
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-17 11:05 -0500
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-18 06:38 +1000
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-07-17 22:04 +0000
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-07-17 15:43 -0700
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-18 10:51 +1000
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-19 08:39 +1000
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2015-07-16 21:49 +0000
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-07-16 15:24 -0700
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-17 09:54 +1000
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-07-17 01:23 +0000
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-17 14:24 +1000
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-17 01:20 +0100
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-17 11:06 +1000
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Morten Reistad <first@last.name> - 2015-07-17 22:37 +0200
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-19 08:50 +1000
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 07:07 +1000
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Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 08:52 +1000
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 14:32 +1000
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Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-18 13:13 -0500
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Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-20 14:41 -0500
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Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-18 06:27 +1000
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Morten Reistad <first@last.name> - 2015-07-18 22:42 +0200
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 08:26 +1000
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Morten Reistad <first@last.navn> - 2015-07-20 13:35 +0200
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Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-20 10:59 -0500
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Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-07-21 08:49 -0500
Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-21 10:50 -0500
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