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Re: Decidability Decider H

Subject Re: Decidability Decider H
Newsgroups comp.theory, sci.logic, comp.ai.philosophy
References (6 earlier) <u7ujhs$3na9j$1@dont-email.me> <cSAoM.330$RNh2.93@fx43.iad> <u7umv5$3nkts$2@dont-email.me> <YUBoM.21244$Bq67.5702@fx13.iad> <u7ur2q$3o3ai$1@dont-email.me>
From Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID <FhCoM.21248$Bq67.87@fx13.iad> (permalink)
Organization Forte - www.forteinc.com
Date 2023-07-03 12:01 -0400

Cross-posted to 3 groups.

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On 7/3/23 11:56 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 7/3/2023 10:35 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 7/3/23 10:45 AM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 7/3/2023 9:24 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 7/3/23 9:47 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 7/3/2023 8:14 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/2/23 10:48 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 7/2/2023 9:41 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 7/2/23 10:01 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 7/2/2023 8:40 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 7/2/23 8:45 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> A single H can consistently correctly determine whether or 
>>>>>>>>>>> not its input
>>>>>>>>>>> is pathological relative to itself. When H(D,D) is invoked in
>>>>>>>>>>> decidability decider mode determines that D is pathological 
>>>>>>>>>>> relative to
>>>>>>>>>>> itself this enables a batch file to invoke H1(D,D) to get the 
>>>>>>>>>>> actual
>>>>>>>>>>> behavior of the directly executed D(D). H1 is identical to H 
>>>>>>>>>>> except for
>>>>>>>>>>> the pathological relationship to H.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And does an input D that uses this FULL algorithm give your 
>>>>>>>>>> algorithm problems?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Since H(D,D) will (apparently) determine that the input is 
>>>>>>>>>> pathological, and thus defer to H1(D,D), then when we actually 
>>>>>>>>>> run D, appearently it will get that same answer from H1 and do 
>>>>>>>>>> the opposite of it, and thus H1 will be wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Remember, the "Pathological" program is built on a copy of the 
>>>>>>>>>> ACTUAL program that you ask to decide on it, including ALL of 
>>>>>>>>>> its "tricks", including things like this "batch processing".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You seem to be assuming that there is some "Operationg System" 
>>>>>>>>>> outside the Decider - Input structure, but there isn't, at 
>>>>>>>>>> least not one that can affect the answer of the problem.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I spent 12 hours a day for the last 10 days getting the copy 
>>>>>>>>> the input
>>>>>>>>> working. When H(D,D) (in decidability decider mode) detects 
>>>>>>>>> that its
>>>>>>>>> input is in the well defined set of pathological inputs it 
>>>>>>>>> returns 0
>>>>>>>>> indicating that its input is undecidable. The batch file that 
>>>>>>>>> invoked H
>>>>>>>>> then knows to invoke H1(D,D) to correctly report that D(D) halts.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This solution does seem to work correctly on every conventional 
>>>>>>>>> proof in
>>>>>>>>> every textbook.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, did you make your "conventional proof" template actually use 
>>>>>>>> a copy of your ACTUAL decider (which seems to be your "batch 
>>>>>>>> file" not the C funciton H), or are you just admitting that you 
>>>>>>>> wasted 120 hours looking at the wrong thing because you have 
>>>>>>>> made yourself intentionally ignorant of the subject so you don't 
>>>>>>>> understand what you are trying to do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> New_D copies its input and simulates its input with its input.
>>>>>>> It never sees New_H.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why not? Since New_H is the thing that is considered the "Correct 
>>>>>> Halt Decider", New_D needs to be built on it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> New_H is embedded within New_D (as its middle states) just the
>>>>> way it is supposed to be. The question is: Does New_H(New_H) halt?
>>>>>
>>>>> The only difference at the source code level is:
>>>>> (a) New_H copies its input, thus takes one param.
>>>>> (b) New_H has an infinite loop at its accept state.
>>>>
>>>> So, how is New_H a halt decider then?
>>>
>>> typo
>>> The only difference at the source code level is:
>>> (a) New_D copies its input, thus takes one param.
>>> (b) New_D has an infinite loop at its accept state.
>>> Other than that (at the source-code level) New_D is exactly New_H
>>>
>>>
>>
>> But New_D needs to call New_H, 
> 
> Not in the Peter Linz proof:
> https://www.liarparadox.org/Linz_Proof.pdf
> 
> In the Linz proof a copy of H is directly embedded
> within Ĥ at this state: Ĥq0 Wm Wm
> The original H remains unchanged.
> 
> The halting problem is about undecidable inputs, it is not about
> inserting bugs into a halt decider to make it cease to function.
> 
> 

Right, and in Linz, H is the decider that is claimed to give the right 
answer.

That isn't 'H' in your system, but the script that decides whether to 
use H or H1.

Your error is in calling the wrong thing 'H'

You are just showing you are lying by using the wrong name for things.

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Thread

Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 19:45 -0500
  Re: Decidability Decider H Python <python@invalid.org> - 2023-07-03 03:11 +0200
  Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 21:27 -0400
  Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 21:40 -0400
    Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 21:01 -0500
      Re: Decidability Decider H Python <python@invalid.org> - 2023-07-03 04:05 +0200
      Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 22:37 -0400
        Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 22:10 -0500
          Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 22:54 -0500
            Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:14 -0400
              Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:10 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:35 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:41 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:09 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:00 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:49 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:03 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
          Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:13 -0400
            Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 09:42 -0500
              Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:35 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:44 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:05 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:03 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:56 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:08 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:30 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:34 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:40 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 20:51 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 22:47 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 00:06 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 23:35 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2023-07-04 09:27 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-04 16:32 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 19:00 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:45 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:19 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:31 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:36 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 21:28 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
      Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 22:41 -0400
        Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 21:48 -0500
          Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:14 -0400
            Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 08:47 -0500
              Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 10:24 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 09:45 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:35 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:56 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:01 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:11 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 12:57 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:48 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:22 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:17 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:34 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 21:20 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 22:56 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 00:06 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 23:57 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2023-07-04 09:27 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-04 16:52 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 19:00 -0400

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