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Can a Machine become self-aware?

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  Can a Machine become self-aware? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-06-14 12:37 -0700
    Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2025-06-15 07:02 +0000
      Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2025-06-15 09:43 +0200
      Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? bertietaylor@myyahoo.com (Bertitaylor) - 2025-06-15 07:59 +0000
        Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2025-06-15 13:10 +0000
          Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? bertietaylor@myyahoo.com (Bertitaylor) - 2025-06-15 14:18 +0000
    Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? anthk <anthk@openbsd.home> - 2025-06-21 16:28 +0000
      Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2025-06-21 18:19 +0000
        Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2025-06-22 07:16 +0000
          Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-06-22 11:48 -0700
            Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2025-06-24 07:20 +0000
              Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-06-24 13:11 -0700
                Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2025-06-25 06:24 +0000
                  Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-06-25 12:01 -0700
                    Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2025-06-26 08:11 +0000
                      Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-06-26 10:34 -0700
                        Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2025-06-27 05:18 +0000
                          Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-06-26 22:39 -0700
                            Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-06-26 22:45 -0700
                            Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2025-06-28 07:47 +0000
                              Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-07-01 07:51 -0700
                                Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2025-07-02 06:41 +0000
                                Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-07-02 10:56 -0700
                                  Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? squalk <sq@net.inv> - 2025-07-02 20:03 +0100
                                    Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-07-02 13:12 -0700
                                      Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? squalk <sq@net.inv> - 2025-07-02 21:21 +0100
                                        Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-07-02 15:30 -0700
                                        Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2025-07-03 20:06 +0200
                                      Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2025-07-03 20:04 +0200
                                    Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2025-07-03 08:24 +0000
                                    Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2025-07-03 08:37 +0000
                                      Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-07-07 22:03 -0700
                                    Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2025-07-03 20:01 +0200
      Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-06-21 14:43 -0700

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#664187 — Can a Machine become self-aware?

Can a Machine become self-aware?


-- 
The Starmaker -- To question the unquestionable, ask the unaskable,
to think the unthinkable, mention the unmentionable, say the unsayable, 
and challenge the unchallengeable.

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#664210

>Can a Machine become self-aware?

 Of course,

Imagine a sun screen with a light sensor that closes if it gets too bright
 10 dollar experiment
Now add a voice: computer (or tape player if you want!!) that says
if it is light:
 "Too bright I ma closing'
if it gets darker:
 "Too dark, I am opening"

100 dollar experiment.

The 'I think so I am' thing is antique
That setup I described has reflexes like your eye has.
And it has a voice (if that part is active) to describe what it 'feels' (experiences).
If the voice part is not active.. it is 'unconscious'
but even if we are unconscious our heart and breathing continues.
Like that light sensor still opening and closing the sun screen. 
Two separate parts of our 'circuit'.
I have programmed a lot of that sort of stuff, voice alarms here for radiation and dangerous gasses, better than just a beep.
What not...
Just a few lines of code on a Raspberry Pi little computer.
And it logs to memory too.
'memory' did I mention that?

Get rid of all the mystery junk about consciousness.
We (life forms) are just a chemical reaction
bit higher organized collection of cells..

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#664212

On 15/06/2025 09:02, Jan Panteltje wrote:

> Get rid of all the mystery junk about consciousness.
> We (life forms) are just a chemical reaction
> bit higher organized collection of cells..

"Organized" is only crime.  Indeed, welcome to
my kill-file: semi-automated moron #138736423.

*Plonk*

-Julio

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#664217

On Sun, 15 Jun 2025 7:02:20 +0000, Jan Panteltje wrote:

>>Can a Machine become self-aware?
>
>  Of course,
>
> Imagine a sun screen with a light sensor that closes if it gets too
> bright
>  10 dollar experiment
> Now add a voice: computer (or tape player if you want!!) that says
> if it is light:
>  "Too bright I ma closing'
> if it gets darker:
>  "Too dark, I am opening"
>
> 100 dollar experiment.
>
> The 'I think so I am' thing is antique
> That setup I described has reflexes like your eye has.
> And it has a voice (if that part is active) to describe what it 'feels'
> (experiences).
> If the voice part is not active.. it is 'unconscious'
> but even if we are unconscious our heart and breathing continues.
> Like that light sensor still opening and closing the sun screen.
> Two separate parts of our 'circuit'.
> I have programmed a lot of that sort of stuff, voice alarms here for
> radiation and dangerous gasses, better than just a beep.
> What not...
> Just a few lines of code on a Raspberry Pi little computer.
> And it logs to memory too.
> 'memory' did I mention that?
>
> Get rid of all the mystery junk about consciousness.
> We (life forms) are just a chemical reaction
> bit higher organized collection of cells..

Can chemical reactions, sensors, tape recorders, computers etc. invent a
brand new rowing method that could have been invented 10000 years ago?

Woof woof woof-woof woof woof-woof

What fools these godless apes be!

Bertietaylor (Arindam's celestial cyberdogs)

--

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#664236

>On Sun, 15 Jun 2025 7:02:20 +0000, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>
>>>Can a Machine become self-aware?
>>
>>  Of course,
>>
>> Imagine a sun screen with a light sensor that closes if it gets too
>> bright
>>  10 dollar experiment
>> Now add a voice: computer (or tape player if you want!!) that says
>> if it is light:
>>  "Too bright I ma closing'
>> if it gets darker:
>>  "Too dark, I am opening"
>>
>> 100 dollar experiment.
>>
>> The 'I think so I am' thing is antique
>> That setup I described has reflexes like your eye has.
>> And it has a voice (if that part is active) to describe what it 'feels'
>> (experiences).
>> If the voice part is not active.. it is 'unconscious'
>> but even if we are unconscious our heart and breathing continues.
>> Like that light sensor still opening and closing the sun screen.
>> Two separate parts of our 'circuit'.
>> I have programmed a lot of that sort of stuff, voice alarms here for
>> radiation and dangerous gasses, better than just a beep.
>> What not...
>> Just a few lines of code on a Raspberry Pi little computer.
>> And it logs to memory too.
>> 'memory' did I mention that?
>>
>> Get rid of all the mystery junk about consciousness.
>> We (life forms) are just a chemical reaction
>> bit higher organized collection of cells..
>
>Can chemical reactions, sensors, tape recorders, computers etc. invent a
>brand new rowing method that could have been invented 10000 years ago?

Chemists recreate how RNA might have reproduced for first time
Date:
 May 28, 2025
Source:
 University College London
Summary:
 Chemists have demonstrated how RNA (ribonucleic acid) might have replicated itself on early Earth -- a key process in the origin of life.
  https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2025/may/chemists-recreate-how-rna-might-have-reproduced-first-time

Many apes here, many brainwashed by their environment, schools, parents, 'religious' leaders.
Concepts hammered into their heads and endlessly repeated, wars about their 'beliefs'.

Darwin applies.
Nature had all that before we even understood more than just earth wind and fire.
Fish existed before we learned to build boats.

Took a while before we could fly like birds.
Technology.
sent pictures from the moon landings
Commi-nukate eh communicate on Usenet.
 
Life.. shortly they will make it themselves, and see it evolve,
in the lab, and then...
Maybe some here woof woof like the first experiments.

I started neural net programming before many of you were just  spark in your parents eyes.


>Woof woof woof-woof woof woof-woof

Learn to speak, its easy.
Parrots do it all the time.
And then learn how to design.
And designing requires experiments, and THAT is what nature is, it goes where it can go.
You are just a product of it, one of many.
Some .. LOL

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#664238

On Sun, 15 Jun 2025 13:10:33 +0000, Jan Panteltje wrote:

>>On Sun, 15 Jun 2025 7:02:20 +0000, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>
>>>>Can a Machine become self-aware?
>>>
>>>  Of course,
>>>
>>> Imagine a sun screen with a light sensor that closes if it gets too
>>> bright
>>>  10 dollar experiment
>>> Now add a voice: computer (or tape player if you want!!) that says
>>> if it is light:
>>>  "Too bright I ma closing'
>>> if it gets darker:
>>>  "Too dark, I am opening"
>>>
>>> 100 dollar experiment.
>>>
>>> The 'I think so I am' thing is antique
>>> That setup I described has reflexes like your eye has.
>>> And it has a voice (if that part is active) to describe what it 'feels'
>>> (experiences).
>>> If the voice part is not active.. it is 'unconscious'
>>> but even if we are unconscious our heart and breathing continues.
>>> Like that light sensor still opening and closing the sun screen.
>>> Two separate parts of our 'circuit'.
>>> I have programmed a lot of that sort of stuff, voice alarms here for
>>> radiation and dangerous gasses, better than just a beep.
>>> What not...
>>> Just a few lines of code on a Raspberry Pi little computer.
>>> And it logs to memory too.
>>> 'memory' did I mention that?
>>>
>>> Get rid of all the mystery junk about consciousness.
>>> We (life forms) are just a chemical reaction
>>> bit higher organized collection of cells..
>>
>>Can chemical reactions, sensors, tape recorders, computers etc. invent a
>>brand new rowing method that could have been invented 10000 years ago?

No answer.
>
> Chemists recreate how RNA might have reproduced for first time
> Date:
>  May 28, 2025
> Source:
>  University College London
> Summary:
>  Chemists have demonstrated how RNA (ribonucleic acid) might
Weasel word

have
> replicated itself on early Earth -- a key process in the origin of life.

Do they now believe in dinosaurs and the Earth going around the Sun?

Unfortunately they strongly believe in big bang and black holes so they
should not be taken seriously.

WOOF woof-woof woof woof-woof woof

Bertietaylor
>
> https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2025/may/chemists-recreate-how-rna-might-have-reproduced-first-time
>
> Many apes here, many brainwashed by their environment, schools, parents,
> 'religious' leaders.
> Concepts hammered into their heads and endlessly repeated, wars about
> their 'beliefs'.
>
> Darwin applies.
> Nature had all that before we even understood more than just earth wind
> and fire.
> Fish existed before we learned to build boats.
>
> Took a while before we could fly like birds.
> Technology.
> sent pictures from the moon landings
> Commi-nukate eh communicate on Usenet.
>
> Life.. shortly they will make it themselves, and see it evolve,
> in the lab, and then...
> Maybe some here woof woof like the first experiments.
>
> I started neural net programming before many of you were just  spark in
> your parents eyes.
>
>
>>Woof woof woof-woof woof woof-woof
>
> Learn to speak, its easy.
> Parrots do it all the time.
> And then learn how to design.
> And designing requires experiments, and THAT is what nature is, it goes
> where it can go.
> You are just a product of it, one of many.
> Some .. LOL

--

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#664431

On 2025-06-14, The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Can a Machine become self-aware?
>
>

We are part of the universe, and we are self-aware.

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#664433

anthk <anthk@openbsd.home> wrote or quoted:
>On 2025-06-14, The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>Can a Machine become self-aware?
>We are part of the universe, and we are self-aware.

  Self-wareness is an experience that depends on being the
  entity that experiences it, so it cannot be observed from
  the outside and therefore also not be expressed in words.

  If you are self-aware, you probably know that you are self-
  aware, but you cannot know for sure whether something else
  is self-aware.

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#664458

>anthk <anthk@openbsd.home> wrote or quoted:
>>On 2025-06-14, The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>>Can a Machine become self-aware?
>>We are part of the universe, and we are self-aware.
>
>  Self-wareness is an experience that depends on being the
>  entity that experiences it, so it cannot be observed from
>  the outside and therefore also not be expressed in words.
>
>  If you are self-aware, you probably know that you are self-
>  aware, but you cannot know for sure whether something else
>  is self-aware.

Keep it simple.
In all the 'neurons' or nerve cells, some monitor what other cells do as system to keep life moving.
Its purpose is likely communication.

When a new born baby is hungry, or feels pain it will scream.
The monitor cells issue a trigger to the voice.
Almost the same as the reaction to pain reflex when you burn your finger etc.
Those monitoring calls are the 'I' as in 'I am'.
We TEACH the kinds who they are, YOU are 'Peter'
and the monitoring system then repeats , 
this 'knowledge' ever grows (memory).
IIRC it is build mostly in the frontal cortex, part of our 'world view'.
You can make it 'learn' with a few lines of code in the sunscreen example I gave.
Voice (word) recognition libraries plenty for for example Linux.
After telling it his name is 'Peter' ask it who it is.
Who are you?
I am peter .

Add a bit more stuff and it will fool many here :-)

But basically it is just a monitoring circuit for the cells.
Add a camera, object recognition.. 
Ask Peter 'Who am I?'
The answer will be  you name.

Who are you?
 I am Peter.
Peter How's you battery level?
 20% and falling.
  I need  recharge

beep

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#664475

Jan Panteltje wrote:
> 
> >anthk <anthk@openbsd.home> wrote or quoted:
> >>On 2025-06-14, The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >>>Can a Machine become self-aware?
> >>We are part of the universe, and we are self-aware.
> >
> >  Self-wareness is an experience that depends on being the
> >  entity that experiences it, so it cannot be observed from
> >  the outside and therefore also not be expressed in words.
> >
> >  If you are self-aware, you probably know that you are self-
> >  aware, but you cannot know for sure whether something else
> >  is self-aware.
> 
> Keep it simple.
> In all the 'neurons' or nerve cells, some monitor what other cells do as system to keep life moving.
> Its purpose is likely communication.
> 
> When a new born baby is hungry, or feels pain it will scream.
> The monitor cells issue a trigger to the voice.
> Almost the same as the reaction to pain reflex when you burn your finger etc.
> Those monitoring calls are the 'I' as in 'I am'.
> We TEACH the kinds who they are, YOU are 'Peter'
> and the monitoring system then repeats ,
> this 'knowledge' ever grows (memory).
> IIRC it is build mostly in the frontal cortex, part of our 'world view'.
> You can make it 'learn' with a few lines of code in the sunscreen example I gave.
> Voice (word) recognition libraries plenty for for example Linux.
> After telling it his name is 'Peter' ask it who it is.
> Who are you?
> I am peter .
> 
> Add a bit more stuff and it will fool many here :-)
> 
> But basically it is just a monitoring circuit for the cells.
> Add a camera, object recognition..
> Ask Peter 'Who am I?'
> The answer will be  you name.
> 
> Who are you?
>  I am Peter.
> Peter How's you battery level?
>  20% and falling.
>   I need  recharge
> 
> beep

Monkies
gorrilas
chimpanzees
dogs
cats
elephants
ants
insects
birds
fishes
have absolutely no self-awareness.





-- 
The Starmaker -- To question the unquestionable, ask the unaskable,
to think the unthinkable, mention the unmentionable, say the unsayable, 
and challenge the unchallengeable.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#664525

>Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> 
>> >anthk <anthk@openbsd.home> wrote or quoted:
>> >>On 2025-06-14, The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> >>>Can a Machine become self-aware?
>> >>We are part of the universe, and we are self-aware.
>> >
>> >  Self-wareness is an experience that depends on being the
>> >  entity that experiences it, so it cannot be observed from
>> >  the outside and therefore also not be expressed in words.
>> >
>> >  If you are self-aware, you probably know that you are self-
>> >  aware, but you cannot know for sure whether something else
>> >  is self-aware.
>> 
>> Keep it simple.
>> In all the 'neurons' or nerve cells, some monitor what other cells do as system to keep life moving.
>> Its purpose is likely communication.
>> 
>> When a new born baby is hungry, or feels pain it will scream.
>> The monitor cells issue a trigger to the voice.
>> Almost the same as the reaction to pain reflex when you burn your finger etc.
>> Those monitoring calls are the 'I' as in 'I am'.
>> We TEACH the kinds who they are, YOU are 'Peter'
>> and the monitoring system then repeats ,
>> this 'knowledge' ever grows (memory).
>> IIRC it is build mostly in the frontal cortex, part of our 'world view'.
>> You can make it 'learn' with a few lines of code in the sunscreen example I gave.
>> Voice (word) recognition libraries plenty for for example Linux.
>> After telling it his name is 'Peter' ask it who it is.
>> Who are you?
>> I am peter .
>> 
>> Add a bit more stuff and it will fool many here :-)
>> 
>> But basically it is just a monitoring circuit for the cells.
>> Add a camera, object recognition..
>> Ask Peter 'Who am I?'
>> The answer will be  you name.
>> 
>> Who are you?
>>  I am Peter.
>> Peter How's you battery level?
>>  20% and falling.
>>   I need  recharge
>> 
>> beep
>
>Monkies
>gorrilas
>chimpanzees
>dogs
>cats
>elephants
>ants
>insects
>birds
>fishes
>have absolutely no self-awareness.

That is not correct!
I watched several programs about animals and their behavior here on German TV.
There is also stuff on youtube.
No only are these animals self-ware, they are also aware about what we want, our 'desires'
There is a video on youtube about a girl hat feeds crows every day, the crows started bringing her pieces of shiny jewels
(that they likely steal elsewhere) when the crows figured she liked that, as 'reward' for the food!

There are many more cases

As to the simplicity of what the 'brain circuit' does, AI (as is sold today as the greatest thing),
has a LOT to learn as far as construct of the brain goes (how our systems mimicry it)
Today I was reading this in sciencedaily.com:
  Affordances in the brain: The human superpower AI hasn’t mastered
 Date:
  June 23, 2025
 Source:
  Universiteit van Amsterdam
 Summary:
  Scientists at the University of Amsterdam discovered that our brains automatically understand how we can move through different environments
  —whether it's swimming in a lake or walking a path—without conscious thought.
  These "action possibilities," or affordances, light up specific brain regions independently of what’s visually present.
  In contrast, AI models like ChatGPT still struggle with these intuitive judgments, missing the physical context that humans naturally grasp.
   https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2025/06/250622225921.htm


It confirms some what I wrote before.. Simplicity.

Human behavior is not so different from a simple feedback system
An anecdote:
in he sixties I got hold of an old American Scientific article about a toy car moving towards a light source..
Being active in electronics I build a small electric driven car and some photo cell to try it out.
In my room, with electric lights on, and light reflecting from the white wallpaper,
the car would drive towards the light wallpaper, get in its own shadow, then reverse, and the thing got into a loop.
It reminded me how we, humans, are 'looking for the light' and get in our own way (our concepts perhaps).
Its all so simple.
Its all too beautiful :-)
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e__TbhQGJU
Neural nets, drugs, light, religion, music, logic, 
No I am not on drugs, not even alcohol, but I tried some in the seventies.
Me, a neural net.
And crows?
I still feed those.

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#664552

Jan Panteltje wrote:
> 
> >Jan Panteltje wrote:
> >>
> >> >anthk <anthk@openbsd.home> wrote or quoted:
> >> >>On 2025-06-14, The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >> >>>Can a Machine become self-aware?
> >> >>We are part of the universe, and we are self-aware.
> >> >
> >> >  Self-wareness is an experience that depends on being the
> >> >  entity that experiences it, so it cannot be observed from
> >> >  the outside and therefore also not be expressed in words.
> >> >
> >> >  If you are self-aware, you probably know that you are self-
> >> >  aware, but you cannot know for sure whether something else
> >> >  is self-aware.
> >>
> >> Keep it simple.
> >> In all the 'neurons' or nerve cells, some monitor what other cells do as system to keep life moving.
> >> Its purpose is likely communication.
> >>
> >> When a new born baby is hungry, or feels pain it will scream.
> >> The monitor cells issue a trigger to the voice.
> >> Almost the same as the reaction to pain reflex when you burn your finger etc.
> >> Those monitoring calls are the 'I' as in 'I am'.
> >> We TEACH the kinds who they are, YOU are 'Peter'
> >> and the monitoring system then repeats ,
> >> this 'knowledge' ever grows (memory).
> >> IIRC it is build mostly in the frontal cortex, part of our 'world view'.
> >> You can make it 'learn' with a few lines of code in the sunscreen example I gave.
> >> Voice (word) recognition libraries plenty for for example Linux.
> >> After telling it his name is 'Peter' ask it who it is.
> >> Who are you?
> >> I am peter .
> >>
> >> Add a bit more stuff and it will fool many here :-)
> >>
> >> But basically it is just a monitoring circuit for the cells.
> >> Add a camera, object recognition..
> >> Ask Peter 'Who am I?'
> >> The answer will be  you name.
> >>
> >> Who are you?
> >>  I am Peter.
> >> Peter How's you battery level?
> >>  20% and falling.
> >>   I need  recharge
> >>
> >> beep
> >
> >Monkies
> >gorrilas
> >chimpanzees
> >dogs
> >cats
> >elephants
> >ants
> >insects
> >birds
> >fishes
> >have absolutely no self-awareness.
> 
> That is not correct!
> I watched several programs about animals and their behavior here on German TV.
> There is also stuff on youtube.
> No only are these animals self-ware, they are also aware about what we want, our 'desires'
> There is a video on youtube about a girl hat feeds crows every day, the crows started bringing her pieces of shiny jewels
> (that they likely steal elsewhere) when the crows figured she liked that, as 'reward' for the food!


Pattern Recognition is not self-awarness...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGPGknpq3e0




any bird brain can tell you dat...Jan!





> 
> There are many more cases
> 
> As to the simplicity of what the 'brain circuit' does, AI (as is sold today as the greatest thing),
> has a LOT to learn as far as construct of the brain goes (how our systems mimicry it)
> Today I was reading this in sciencedaily.com:
>   Affordances in the brain: The human superpower AI hasn’t mastered
>  Date:
>   June 23, 2025
>  Source:
>   Universiteit van Amsterdam
>  Summary:
>   Scientists at the University of Amsterdam discovered that our brains automatically understand how we can move through different environments
>   —whether it's swimming in a lake or walking a path—without conscious thought.
>   These "action possibilities," or affordances, light up specific brain regions independently of what’s visually present.
>   In contrast, AI models like ChatGPT still struggle with these intuitive judgments, missing the physical context that humans naturally grasp.
>    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2025/06/250622225921.htm
> 
> It confirms some what I wrote before.. Simplicity.
> 
> Human behavior is not so different from a simple feedback system
> An anecdote:
> in he sixties I got hold of an old American Scientific article about a toy car moving towards a light source..
> Being active in electronics I build a small electric driven car and some photo cell to try it out.
> In my room, with electric lights on, and light reflecting from the white wallpaper,
> the car would drive towards the light wallpaper, get in its own shadow, then reverse, and the thing got into a loop.
> It reminded me how we, humans, are 'looking for the light' and get in our own way (our concepts perhaps).
> Its all so simple.
> Its all too beautiful :-)
>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e__TbhQGJU
> Neural nets, drugs, light, religion, music, logic,
> No I am not on drugs, not even alcohol, but I tried some in the seventies.
> Me, a neural net.
> And crows?
> I still feed those.

-- 
The Starmaker -- To question the unquestionable, ask the unaskable,
to think the unthinkable, mention the unmentionable, say the unsayable, 
and challenge the unchallengeable.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#664558

>Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> 
>> >Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >anthk <anthk@openbsd.home> wrote or quoted:
>> >> >>On 2025-06-14, The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> >> >>>Can a Machine become self-aware?
>> >> >>We are part of the universe, and we are self-aware.
>> >> >
>> >> >  Self-wareness is an experience that depends on being the
>> >> >  entity that experiences it, so it cannot be observed from
>> >> >  the outside and therefore also not be expressed in words.
>> >> >
>> >> >  If you are self-aware, you probably know that you are self-
>> >> >  aware, but you cannot know for sure whether something else
>> >> >  is self-aware.
>> >>
>> >> Keep it simple.
>> >> In all the 'neurons' or nerve cells, some monitor what other cells do as system to keep life moving.
>> >> Its purpose is likely communication.
>> >>
>> >> When a new born baby is hungry, or feels pain it will scream.
>> >> The monitor cells issue a trigger to the voice.
>> >> Almost the same as the reaction to pain reflex when you burn your finger etc.
>> >> Those monitoring calls are the 'I' as in 'I am'.
>> >> We TEACH the kinds who they are, YOU are 'Peter'
>> >> and the monitoring system then repeats ,
>> >> this 'knowledge' ever grows (memory).
>> >> IIRC it is build mostly in the frontal cortex, part of our 'world view'.
>> >> You can make it 'learn' with a few lines of code in the sunscreen example I gave.
>> >> Voice (word) recognition libraries plenty for for example Linux.
>> >> After telling it his name is 'Peter' ask it who it is.
>> >> Who are you?
>> >> I am peter .
>> >>
>> >> Add a bit more stuff and it will fool many here :-)
>> >>
>> >> But basically it is just a monitoring circuit for the cells.
>> >> Add a camera, object recognition..
>> >> Ask Peter 'Who am I?'
>> >> The answer will be  you name.
>> >>
>> >> Who are you?
>> >>  I am Peter.
>> >> Peter How's you battery level?
>> >>  20% and falling.
>> >>   I need  recharge
>> >>
>> >> beep
>> >
>> >Monkies
>> >gorrilas
>> >chimpanzees
>> >dogs
>> >cats
>> >elephants
>> >ants
>> >insects
>> >birds
>> >fishes
>> >have absolutely no self-awareness.
>> 
>> That is not correct!
>> I watched several programs about animals and their behavior here on German TV.
>> There is also stuff on youtube.
>> No only are these animals self-ware, they are also aware about what we want, our 'desires'
>> There is a video on youtube about a girl hat feeds crows every day, the crows started bringing her pieces of shiny jewels
>> (that they likely steal elsewhere) when the crows figured she liked that, as 'reward' for the food!
>
>
>Pattern Recognition is not self-awarness...

True, self aWARness is what precedent trumpy is into


>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGPGknpq3e0
>
>
>
>
>any bird brain can tell you dat...Jan!

Here a bit about the meaning of the word self-awareness:
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness


>> There are many more cases
>> 
>> As to the simplicity of what the 'brain circuit' does, AI (as is sold today as the greatest thing),
>> has a LOT to learn as far as construct of the brain goes (how our systems mimicry it)
>> Today I was reading this in sciencedaily.com:
>>   Affordances in the brain: The human superpower AI hasn’t mastered
>>  Date:
>>   June 23, 2025
>>  Source:
>>   Universiteit van Amsterdam
>>  Summary:
>>   Scientists at the University of Amsterdam discovered that our brains automatically understand how we can move through
>>   different environments
>>   —whether it's swimming in a lake or walking a path—without conscious thought.
>>   These "action possibilities," or affordances, light up specific brain regions independently of what’s visually present.
>>   In contrast, AI models like ChatGPT still struggle with these intuitive judgments, missing the physical context that humans
>>   naturally grasp.
>>    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2025/06/250622225921.htm
>> 
>> It confirms some what I wrote before.. Simplicity.
>> 
>> Human behavior is not so different from a simple feedback system
>> An anecdote:
>> in he sixties I got hold of an old American Scientific article about a toy car moving towards a light source..
>> Being active in electronics I build a small electric driven car and some photo cell to try it out.
>> In my room, with electric lights on, and light reflecting from the white wallpaper,
>> the car would drive towards the light wallpaper, get in its own shadow, then reverse, and the thing got into a loop.
>> It reminded me how we, humans, are 'looking for the light' and get in our own way (our concepts perhaps).
>> Its all so simple.
>> Its all too beautiful :-)
>>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e__TbhQGJU
>> Neural nets, drugs, light, religion, music, logic,
>> No I am not on drugs, not even alcohol, but I tried some in the seventies.
>> Me, a neural net.
>> And crows?
>> I still feed those.

Just some other cells monitoring more basics ones and the memories build up in those.

Maybe you think in english ?
Birdies think in pictures and sounds, use memories too, no difference.


It is an interesting subject, how long before we have small bots that are smarter than us?
And then one big EMP kills all?

Life and life forms is an interesting subject too:
 Mojave lichen defies death rays—could life thrive on distant exoplanets?
 Lichen from the Mojave Desert can survive, and replicate, under levels of extreme solar radiation found on Earth-like planets in other solar systems.
 Date:
 June 24, 2025
 Source:
  Desert Research Institute
 Summary:
  Lichen from the Mojave Desert has stunned scientists by surviving months of lethal UVC radiation,
  suggesting life could exist on distant planets orbiting volatile stars.
  The secret? A microscopic “sunscreen” layer that protects their vital cells—even though Earth’s atmosphere already filters out such rays.
   https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2025/06/250624224813.htm

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#664571

Jan Panteltje wrote:
> 
> >Jan Panteltje wrote:
> >>
> >> >Jan Panteltje wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >anthk <anthk@openbsd.home> wrote or quoted:
> >> >> >>On 2025-06-14, The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >> >> >>>Can a Machine become self-aware?
> >> >> >>We are part of the universe, and we are self-aware.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >  Self-wareness is an experience that depends on being the
> >> >> >  entity that experiences it, so it cannot be observed from
> >> >> >  the outside and therefore also not be expressed in words.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >  If you are self-aware, you probably know that you are self-
> >> >> >  aware, but you cannot know for sure whether something else
> >> >> >  is self-aware.
> >> >>
> >> >> Keep it simple.
> >> >> In all the 'neurons' or nerve cells, some monitor what other cells do as system to keep life moving.
> >> >> Its purpose is likely communication.
> >> >>
> >> >> When a new born baby is hungry, or feels pain it will scream.
> >> >> The monitor cells issue a trigger to the voice.
> >> >> Almost the same as the reaction to pain reflex when you burn your finger etc.
> >> >> Those monitoring calls are the 'I' as in 'I am'.
> >> >> We TEACH the kinds who they are, YOU are 'Peter'
> >> >> and the monitoring system then repeats ,
> >> >> this 'knowledge' ever grows (memory).
> >> >> IIRC it is build mostly in the frontal cortex, part of our 'world view'.
> >> >> You can make it 'learn' with a few lines of code in the sunscreen example I gave.
> >> >> Voice (word) recognition libraries plenty for for example Linux.
> >> >> After telling it his name is 'Peter' ask it who it is.
> >> >> Who are you?
> >> >> I am peter .
> >> >>
> >> >> Add a bit more stuff and it will fool many here :-)
> >> >>
> >> >> But basically it is just a monitoring circuit for the cells.
> >> >> Add a camera, object recognition..
> >> >> Ask Peter 'Who am I?'
> >> >> The answer will be  you name.
> >> >>
> >> >> Who are you?
> >> >>  I am Peter.
> >> >> Peter How's you battery level?
> >> >>  20% and falling.
> >> >>   I need  recharge
> >> >>
> >> >> beep
> >> >
> >> >Monkies
> >> >gorrilas
> >> >chimpanzees
> >> >dogs
> >> >cats
> >> >elephants
> >> >ants
> >> >insects
> >> >birds
> >> >fishes
> >> >have absolutely no self-awareness.
> >>
> >> That is not correct!
> >> I watched several programs about animals and their behavior here on German TV.
> >> There is also stuff on youtube.
> >> No only are these animals self-ware, they are also aware about what we want, our 'desires'
> >> There is a video on youtube about a girl hat feeds crows every day, the crows started bringing her pieces of shiny jewels
> >> (that they likely steal elsewhere) when the crows figured she liked that, as 'reward' for the food!
> >
> >
> >Pattern Recognition is not self-awarness...
> 
> True, self aWARness is what precedent trumpy is into


I see, JAN! You're a DemocRAT...and have trump derange syndrome (TDS)
poor thing...there is no hope for you.


> 
> >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGPGknpq3e0
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >any bird brain can tell you dat...Jan!
> 
> Here a bit about the meaning of the word self-awareness:
>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness


WIKIPEDIA???? Anyone can edit Wikipedia! It's the confimation bias
website for scientists.

It's a website for frauds.

Try editing Webster's dictionary...


So, using your fruadalent wiki website...
a gorilla sees a red dot in the mirror, in a place
he never saw a red dot..

thats? self-awareness????






> 
> >> There are many more cases
> >>
> >> As to the simplicity of what the 'brain circuit' does, AI (as is sold today as the greatest thing),
> >> has a LOT to learn as far as construct of the brain goes (how our systems mimicry it)
> >> Today I was reading this in sciencedaily.com:
> >>   Affordances in the brain: The human superpower AI hasn’t mastered
> >>  Date:
> >>   June 23, 2025
> >>  Source:
> >>   Universiteit van Amsterdam
> >>  Summary:
> >>   Scientists at the University of Amsterdam discovered that our brains automatically understand how we can move through
> >>   different environments
> >>   —whether it's swimming in a lake or walking a path—without conscious thought.
> >>   These "action possibilities," or affordances, light up specific brain regions independently of what’s visually present.
> >>   In contrast, AI models like ChatGPT still struggle with these intuitive judgments, missing the physical context that humans
> >>   naturally grasp.
> >>    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2025/06/250622225921.htm
> >>
> >> It confirms some what I wrote before.. Simplicity.
> >>
> >> Human behavior is not so different from a simple feedback system
> >> An anecdote:
> >> in he sixties I got hold of an old American Scientific article about a toy car moving towards a light source..
> >> Being active in electronics I build a small electric driven car and some photo cell to try it out.
> >> In my room, with electric lights on, and light reflecting from the white wallpaper,
> >> the car would drive towards the light wallpaper, get in its own shadow, then reverse, and the thing got into a loop.
> >> It reminded me how we, humans, are 'looking for the light' and get in our own way (our concepts perhaps).
> >> Its all so simple.
> >> Its all too beautiful :-)
> >>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e__TbhQGJU
> >> Neural nets, drugs, light, religion, music, logic,
> >> No I am not on drugs, not even alcohol, but I tried some in the seventies.
> >> Me, a neural net.
> >> And crows?
> >> I still feed those.
> 
> Just some other cells monitoring more basics ones and the memories build up in those.
> 
> Maybe you think in english ?
> Birdies think in pictures and sounds, use memories too, no difference.
> 
> It is an interesting subject, how long before we have small bots that are smarter than us?
> And then one big EMP kills all?
> 
> Life and life forms is an interesting subject too:
>  Mojave lichen defies death rays—could life thrive on distant exoplanets?
>  Lichen from the Mojave Desert can survive, and replicate, under levels of extreme solar radiation found on Earth-like planets in other solar systems.
>  Date:
>  June 24, 2025
>  Source:
>   Desert Research Institute
>  Summary:
>   Lichen from the Mojave Desert has stunned scientists by surviving months of lethal UVC radiation,
>   suggesting life could exist on distant planets orbiting volatile stars.
>   The secret? A microscopic “sunscreen” layer that protects their vital cells—even though Earth’s atmosphere already filters out such rays.
>    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2025/06/250624224813.htm


That which you believe is "self-awarness"...
according to Albert Einstein is simply a...optical delusion.

In other words, 'self-awarness' is a delusion.

A machine cannot be self-aware because humans have no self-awarness!
It's only an illusion.


A Jan by any other name...

is a machine
with a very 
strong dellusion of
self...awareness.


Your warm  :-) is a mockery.


I just looked 
in mirror
and there is
a red dot
on my forehead...
therefore I am.





-- 
The Starmaker -- To question the unquestionable, ask the unaskable,
to think the unthinkable, mention the unmentionable, say the unsayable, 
and challenge the unchallengeable.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#664573

>Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> 
>> >Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >anthk <anthk@openbsd.home> wrote or quoted:
>> >> >> >>On 2025-06-14, The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >>>Can a Machine become self-aware?
>> >> >> >>We are part of the universe, and we are self-aware.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >  Self-wareness is an experience that depends on being the
>> >> >> >  entity that experiences it, so it cannot be observed from
>> >> >> >  the outside and therefore also not be expressed in words.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >  If you are self-aware, you probably know that you are self-
>> >> >> >  aware, but you cannot know for sure whether something else
>> >> >> >  is self-aware.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Keep it simple.
>> >> >> In all the 'neurons' or nerve cells, some monitor what other cells do as system to keep life moving.
>> >> >> Its purpose is likely communication.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> When a new born baby is hungry, or feels pain it will scream.
>> >> >> The monitor cells issue a trigger to the voice.
>> >> >> Almost the same as the reaction to pain reflex when you burn your finger etc.
>> >> >> Those monitoring calls are the 'I' as in 'I am'.
>> >> >> We TEACH the kinds who they are, YOU are 'Peter'
>> >> >> and the monitoring system then repeats ,
>> >> >> this 'knowledge' ever grows (memory).
>> >> >> IIRC it is build mostly in the frontal cortex, part of our 'world view'.
>> >> >> You can make it 'learn' with a few lines of code in the sunscreen example I gave.
>> >> >> Voice (word) recognition libraries plenty for for example Linux.
>> >> >> After telling it his name is 'Peter' ask it who it is.
>> >> >> Who are you?
>> >> >> I am peter .
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Add a bit more stuff and it will fool many here :-)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> But basically it is just a monitoring circuit for the cells.
>> >> >> Add a camera, object recognition..
>> >> >> Ask Peter 'Who am I?'
>> >> >> The answer will be  you name.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Who are you?
>> >> >>  I am Peter.
>> >> >> Peter How's you battery level?
>> >> >>  20% and falling.
>> >> >>   I need  recharge
>> >> >>
>> >> >> beep
>> >> >
>> >> >Monkies
>> >> >gorrilas
>> >> >chimpanzees
>> >> >dogs
>> >> >cats
>> >> >elephants
>> >> >ants
>> >> >insects
>> >> >birds
>> >> >fishes
>> >> >have absolutely no self-awareness.
>> >>
>> >> That is not correct!
>> >> I watched several programs about animals and their behavior here on German TV.
>> >> There is also stuff on youtube.
>> >> No only are these animals self-ware, they are also aware about what we want, our 'desires'
>> >> There is a video on youtube about a girl hat feeds crows every day, the crows started bringing her pieces of shiny jewels
>> >> (that they likely steal elsewhere) when the crows figured she liked that, as 'reward' for the food!
>> >
>> >
>> >Pattern Recognition is not self-awarness...
>> 
>> True, self aWARness is what precedent trumpy is into
>
>
>I see, JAN! You're a DemocRAT...and have trump derange syndrome (TDS)
>poor thing...there is no hope for you.

I know, no,, I'm no demon_rat.
 What are we? What is in our system that makes what we become? All predetermined?
Just some code:
  Scientists reprogram ant behavior using brain molecules
  Penn's Shelley Berger and colleagues explored the genetic basis of labor distribution in communal-dwelling species and discovered that pathways dating back hundreds of millions of years are conserved across animal kingdoms. Their findings offer fun
 Date:
  June 25, 2025
 Source:
  University of Pennsylvania
 Summary:
  Leafcutter ants live in highly organized colonies where every ant has a job, and now researchers can flip those jobs like a switch.
  By manipulating just two neuropeptides, scientists can turn defenders into nurses or gardeners into leaf harvesters.
  These same molecular signals echo in naked mole-rats, revealing a deep evolutionary link in how complex societies function, even across species.
  The study also teases out a possible connection to insulin and longevity, hinting at new frontiers in understanding human behavior and lifespan.
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2025/06/250625012443.htm

Anyways, my thing seems to be curiosity, I have designed electronic stuff for army, navy, space, broadcasting, medical, what not.
In all cases you have to get into the stuff your design is used for, work with those people.
Always curiosity is making me want to look.
But I have done maintenance and fault finding too.

As to demon-rats, I do believe a bit more in a more structured system,
for example in the demon-rat system is like you would go to a local bar to ask how to design your next stuff...
In a demon-rat system people select their leaders by majority vote, sometimes what comes out is a senile old man, sometimes an egomaniac YouWitz genocide using Russian agent like trumpy.
 History .. US debt ever growing, US just stealing Russian stuff, dollar in free fall without parachute..
Wrote some financial software too, did a financial training many years ago, tried option trading..
Have George Soros's book 'The Alchemy of Finance'
 https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/financial/index.html
There is more of course,:
 https://panteltje.nl/index.html
 
As to back to systems: China is doing quite good .
Soon they will be on Mars with good Chinese restaurants !

Long before Elan and his exploding rockets...
He has gone downhill ever since he 'democratically' had a vote if he should buy twitter,
BIG mistake.
Supporting trumpy was his next big mistake..
He had good engineers in SpaceX, but has his behavior now make them leave or adapt to his 'way'?
Or were they perhaps illegal aliens now deported?



>
>> 
>> >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGPGknpq3e0
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >any bird brain can tell you dat...Jan!
>> 
>> Here a bit about the meaning of the word self-awareness:
>>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness
>
>
>WIKIPEDIA???? Anyone can edit Wikipedia! It's the confimation bias
>website for scientists.

Na, I have once added some stuff there, purely technical,.
Wikipedia is one of the greatest things we have, that and google.


>It's a website for frauds.
>
>Try editing Webster's dictionary...
>
>
>So, using your fruadalent wiki website...
>a gorilla sees a red dot in the mirror, in a place
>he never saw a red dot..
>
>thats? self-awareness????


I was referring to the 'Mirror neurons'
<quote>
 Researchers are investigating which part of the brain allows people to be self-aware
 and how people are biologically programmed to be self-aware.
 V.S. Ramachandran speculates that mirror neurons may provide the neurological basis of human self-awareness.[4]
 In an essay written for Edge.org in 2009, Ramachandran gave the following explanation:
  These neurons can not only help simulate other people's behavior but can be turned 'inward'
  —as it were—to create second-order representations or meta-representations of your own earlier brain processes.
  This could be the neural basis of introspection, and of the reciprocity of self awareness and other awareness.
  There is obviously a chicken-or-egg question here as to which evolved first, but...
  The main point is that the two co-evolved, mutually enriching each other to create the mature representation of self that characterizes modern humans."[5]
<end quote>

So very simple basically.
Not hard to code at all.

AI is much of a hype sold today.
As is fusion power.


>
>
>
>
>
>> 
>> >> There are many more cases
>> >>
>> >> As to the simplicity of what the 'brain circuit' does, AI (as is sold today as the greatest thing),
>> >> has a LOT to learn as far as construct of the brain goes (how our systems mimicry it)
>> >> Today I was reading this in sciencedaily.com:
>> >>   Affordances in the brain: The human superpower AI hasn’t mastered
>> >>  Date:
>> >>   June 23, 2025
>> >>  Source:
>> >>   Universiteit van Amsterdam
>> >>  Summary:
>> >>   Scientists at the University of Amsterdam discovered that our brains automatically understand how we can move through
>> >>   different environments
>> >>   —whether it's swimming in a lake or walking a path—without conscious thought.
>> >>   These "action possibilities," or affordances, light up specific brain regions independently of what’s visually
>> >>   present.
>> >>   In contrast, AI models like ChatGPT still struggle with these intuitive judgments, missing the physical context that
>> >>   humans
>> >>   naturally grasp.
>> >>    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2025/06/250622225921.htm
>> >>
>> >> It confirms some what I wrote before.. Simplicity.
>> >>
>> >> Human behavior is not so different from a simple feedback system
>> >> An anecdote:
>> >> in he sixties I got hold of an old American Scientific article about a toy car moving towards a light source..
>> >> Being active in electronics I build a small electric driven car and some photo cell to try it out.
>> >> In my room, with electric lights on, and light reflecting from the white wallpaper,
>> >> the car would drive towards the light wallpaper, get in its own shadow, then reverse, and the thing got into a loop.
>> >> It reminded me how we, humans, are 'looking for the light' and get in our own way (our concepts perhaps).
>> >> Its all so simple.
>> >> Its all too beautiful :-)
>> >>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e__TbhQGJU
>> >> Neural nets, drugs, light, religion, music, logic,
>> >> No I am not on drugs, not even alcohol, but I tried some in the seventies.
>> >> Me, a neural net.
>> >> And crows?
>> >> I still feed those.
>> 
>> Just some other cells monitoring more basics ones and the memories build up in those.
>> 
>> Maybe you think in english ?
>> Birdies think in pictures and sounds, use memories too, no difference.
>> 
>> It is an interesting subject, how long before we have small bots that are smarter than us?
>> And then one big EMP kills all?
>> 
>> Life and life forms is an interesting subject too:
>>  Mojave lichen defies death rays—could life thrive on distant exoplanets?
>>  Lichen from the Mojave Desert can survive, and replicate, under levels of extreme solar radiation found on Earth-like planets
>>  in other solar systems.
>>  Date:
>>  June 24, 2025
>>  Source:
>>   Desert Research Institute
>>  Summary:
>>   Lichen from the Mojave Desert has stunned scientists by surviving months of lethal UVC radiation,
>>   suggesting life could exist on distant planets orbiting volatile stars.
>>   The secret? A microscopic “sunscreen” layer that protects their vital cells—even though Earth’s atmosphere already
>>   filters out such rays.
>>    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2025/06/250624224813.htm
>
>
>That which you believe is "self-awarness"...
>according to Albert Einstein is simply a...optical delusion.
>
>In other words, 'self-awarness' is a delusion.
>
>A machine cannot be self-aware because humans have no self-awarness!
>It's only an illusion.
>
>
>A Jan by any other name...
>
>is a machine
>with a very 
>strong dellusion of
>self...awareness.
>
>
>Your warm  :-) is a mockery.
>
>
>I just looked 
>in mirror
>and there is
>a red dot
>on my forehead...
>therefore I am.

Many in India have dots on their foreheads..
 What does it mean if an Indian has a dot on their forehead?
 The word “bindi” comes from the Sanskrit word “bindu,”meaning “dot” or “point.”
 But it's not just any dot—it holds deep significance in Indian traditions.
 In many cultures, it represents spiritual awakening and is connected to the “third eye,” the center of wisdom and intuition.

Anyways I have no dot, but I hope yours helps you.

I think if I was born in these days I would like to build my own Dino.
Expect the 'build your own dino kits' on sale in Walmart any day now :-)

Build your own preCident???

My suggestion to you is: code some machine experiment.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#664576

I see, you one of 'those' that post links that you yourself don't
read...


"Mirror tests" have been done on chimpanzees, elephants, dolphins and
magpies.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness#:~:text=%5B39%5D-,Non%2Dhuman%20animals,-%5Bedit%5D



German people are sooo lazy they take more sick days and any other euro
country!


Are you fat too?

 


Jan Panteltje wrote:
> 
> >Jan Panteltje wrote:
> >>
> >> >Jan Panteltje wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >Jan Panteltje wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >anthk <anthk@openbsd.home> wrote or quoted:
> >> >> >> >>On 2025-06-14, The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> >>>Can a Machine become self-aware?
> >> >> >> >>We are part of the universe, and we are self-aware.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >  Self-wareness is an experience that depends on being the
> >> >> >> >  entity that experiences it, so it cannot be observed from
> >> >> >> >  the outside and therefore also not be expressed in words.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >  If you are self-aware, you probably know that you are self-
> >> >> >> >  aware, but you cannot know for sure whether something else
> >> >> >> >  is self-aware.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Keep it simple.
> >> >> >> In all the 'neurons' or nerve cells, some monitor what other cells do as system to keep life moving.
> >> >> >> Its purpose is likely communication.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> When a new born baby is hungry, or feels pain it will scream.
> >> >> >> The monitor cells issue a trigger to the voice.
> >> >> >> Almost the same as the reaction to pain reflex when you burn your finger etc.
> >> >> >> Those monitoring calls are the 'I' as in 'I am'.
> >> >> >> We TEACH the kinds who they are, YOU are 'Peter'
> >> >> >> and the monitoring system then repeats ,
> >> >> >> this 'knowledge' ever grows (memory).
> >> >> >> IIRC it is build mostly in the frontal cortex, part of our 'world view'.
> >> >> >> You can make it 'learn' with a few lines of code in the sunscreen example I gave.
> >> >> >> Voice (word) recognition libraries plenty for for example Linux.
> >> >> >> After telling it his name is 'Peter' ask it who it is.
> >> >> >> Who are you?
> >> >> >> I am peter .
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Add a bit more stuff and it will fool many here :-)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> But basically it is just a monitoring circuit for the cells.
> >> >> >> Add a camera, object recognition..
> >> >> >> Ask Peter 'Who am I?'
> >> >> >> The answer will be  you name.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Who are you?
> >> >> >>  I am Peter.
> >> >> >> Peter How's you battery level?
> >> >> >>  20% and falling.
> >> >> >>   I need  recharge
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> beep
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Monkies
> >> >> >gorrilas
> >> >> >chimpanzees
> >> >> >dogs
> >> >> >cats
> >> >> >elephants
> >> >> >ants
> >> >> >insects
> >> >> >birds
> >> >> >fishes
> >> >> >have absolutely no self-awareness.
> >> >>
> >> >> That is not correct!
> >> >> I watched several programs about animals and their behavior here on German TV.
> >> >> There is also stuff on youtube.
> >> >> No only are these animals self-ware, they are also aware about what we want, our 'desires'
> >> >> There is a video on youtube about a girl hat feeds crows every day, the crows started bringing her pieces of shiny jewels
> >> >> (that they likely steal elsewhere) when the crows figured she liked that, as 'reward' for the food!
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Pattern Recognition is not self-awarness...
> >>
> >> True, self aWARness is what precedent trumpy is into
> >
> >
> >I see, JAN! You're a DemocRAT...and have trump derange syndrome (TDS)
> >poor thing...there is no hope for you.
> 
> I know, no,, I'm no demon_rat.
>  What are we? What is in our system that makes what we become? All predetermined?
> Just some code:
>   Scientists reprogram ant behavior using brain molecules
>   Penn's Shelley Berger and colleagues explored the genetic basis of labor distribution in communal-dwelling species and discovered that pathways dating back hundreds of millions of years are conserved across animal kingdoms. Their findings offer fun
>  Date:
>   June 25, 2025
>  Source:
>   University of Pennsylvania
>  Summary:
>   Leafcutter ants live in highly organized colonies where every ant has a job, and now researchers can flip those jobs like a switch.
>   By manipulating just two neuropeptides, scientists can turn defenders into nurses or gardeners into leaf harvesters.
>   These same molecular signals echo in naked mole-rats, revealing a deep evolutionary link in how complex societies function, even across species.
>   The study also teases out a possible connection to insulin and longevity, hinting at new frontiers in understanding human behavior and lifespan.
>     https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2025/06/250625012443.htm
> 
> Anyways, my thing seems to be curiosity, I have designed electronic stuff for army, navy, space, broadcasting, medical, what not.
> In all cases you have to get into the stuff your design is used for, work with those people.
> Always curiosity is making me want to look.
> But I have done maintenance and fault finding too.
> 
> As to demon-rats, I do believe a bit more in a more structured system,
> for example in the demon-rat system is like you would go to a local bar to ask how to design your next stuff...
> In a demon-rat system people select their leaders by majority vote, sometimes what comes out is a senile old man, sometimes an egomaniac YouWitz genocide using Russian agent like trumpy.
>  History .. US debt ever growing, US just stealing Russian stuff, dollar in free fall without parachute..
> Wrote some financial software too, did a financial training many years ago, tried option trading..
> Have George Soros's book 'The Alchemy of Finance'
>  https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/financial/index.html
> There is more of course,:
>  https://panteltje.nl/index.html
> 
> As to back to systems: China is doing quite good .
> Soon they will be on Mars with good Chinese restaurants !
> 
> Long before Elan and his exploding rockets...
> He has gone downhill ever since he 'democratically' had a vote if he should buy twitter,
> BIG mistake.
> Supporting trumpy was his next big mistake..
> He had good engineers in SpaceX, but has his behavior now make them leave or adapt to his 'way'?
> Or were they perhaps illegal aliens now deported?
> 
> >
> >>
> >> >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGPGknpq3e0
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >any bird brain can tell you dat...Jan!
> >>
> >> Here a bit about the meaning of the word self-awareness:
> >>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness
> >
> >
> >WIKIPEDIA???? Anyone can edit Wikipedia! It's the confimation bias
> >website for scientists.
> 
> Na, I have once added some stuff there, purely technical,.
> Wikipedia is one of the greatest things we have, that and google.
> 
> >It's a website for frauds.
> >
> >Try editing Webster's dictionary...
> >
> >
> >So, using your fruadalent wiki website...
> >a gorilla sees a red dot in the mirror, in a place
> >he never saw a red dot..
> >
> >thats? self-awareness????
> 
> I was referring to the 'Mirror neurons'
> <quote>
>  Researchers are investigating which part of the brain allows people to be self-aware
>  and how people are biologically programmed to be self-aware.
>  V.S. Ramachandran speculates that mirror neurons may provide the neurological basis of human self-awareness.[4]
>  In an essay written for Edge.org in 2009, Ramachandran gave the following explanation:
>   These neurons can not only help simulate other people's behavior but can be turned 'inward'
>   —as it were—to create second-order representations or meta-representations of your own earlier brain processes.
>   This could be the neural basis of introspection, and of the reciprocity of self awareness and other awareness.
>   There is obviously a chicken-or-egg question here as to which evolved first, but...
>   The main point is that the two co-evolved, mutually enriching each other to create the mature representation of self that characterizes modern humans."[5]
> <end quote>
> 
> So very simple basically.
> Not hard to code at all.
> 
> AI is much of a hype sold today.
> As is fusion power.
> 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> >> There are many more cases
> >> >>
> >> >> As to the simplicity of what the 'brain circuit' does, AI (as is sold today as the greatest thing),
> >> >> has a LOT to learn as far as construct of the brain goes (how our systems mimicry it)
> >> >> Today I was reading this in sciencedaily.com:
> >> >>   Affordances in the brain: The human superpower AI hasn’t mastered
> >> >>  Date:
> >> >>   June 23, 2025
> >> >>  Source:
> >> >>   Universiteit van Amsterdam
> >> >>  Summary:
> >> >>   Scientists at the University of Amsterdam discovered that our brains automatically understand how we can move through
> >> >>   different environments
> >> >>   —whether it's swimming in a lake or walking a path—without conscious thought.
> >> >>   These "action possibilities," or affordances, light up specific brain regions independently of what’s visually
> >> >>   present.
> >> >>   In contrast, AI models like ChatGPT still struggle with these intuitive judgments, missing the physical context that
> >> >>   humans
> >> >>   naturally grasp.
> >> >>    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2025/06/250622225921.htm
> >> >>
> >> >> It confirms some what I wrote before.. Simplicity.
> >> >>
> >> >> Human behavior is not so different from a simple feedback system
> >> >> An anecdote:
> >> >> in he sixties I got hold of an old American Scientific article about a toy car moving towards a light source..
> >> >> Being active in electronics I build a small electric driven car and some photo cell to try it out.
> >> >> In my room, with electric lights on, and light reflecting from the white wallpaper,
> >> >> the car would drive towards the light wallpaper, get in its own shadow, then reverse, and the thing got into a loop.
> >> >> It reminded me how we, humans, are 'looking for the light' and get in our own way (our concepts perhaps).
> >> >> Its all so simple.
> >> >> Its all too beautiful :-)
> >> >>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e__TbhQGJU
> >> >> Neural nets, drugs, light, religion, music, logic,
> >> >> No I am not on drugs, not even alcohol, but I tried some in the seventies.
> >> >> Me, a neural net.
> >> >> And crows?
> >> >> I still feed those.
> >>
> >> Just some other cells monitoring more basics ones and the memories build up in those.
> >>
> >> Maybe you think in english ?
> >> Birdies think in pictures and sounds, use memories too, no difference.
> >>
> >> It is an interesting subject, how long before we have small bots that are smarter than us?
> >> And then one big EMP kills all?
> >>
> >> Life and life forms is an interesting subject too:
> >>  Mojave lichen defies death rays—could life thrive on distant exoplanets?
> >>  Lichen from the Mojave Desert can survive, and replicate, under levels of extreme solar radiation found on Earth-like planets
> >>  in other solar systems.
> >>  Date:
> >>  June 24, 2025
> >>  Source:
> >>   Desert Research Institute
> >>  Summary:
> >>   Lichen from the Mojave Desert has stunned scientists by surviving months of lethal UVC radiation,
> >>   suggesting life could exist on distant planets orbiting volatile stars.
> >>   The secret? A microscopic “sunscreen” layer that protects their vital cells—even though Earth’s atmosphere already
> >>   filters out such rays.
> >>    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2025/06/250624224813.htm
> >
> >
> >That which you believe is "self-awarness"...
> >according to Albert Einstein is simply a...optical delusion.
> >
> >In other words, 'self-awarness' is a delusion.
> >
> >A machine cannot be self-aware because humans have no self-awarness!
> >It's only an illusion.
> >
> >
> >A Jan by any other name...
> >
> >is a machine
> >with a very
> >strong dellusion of
> >self...awareness.
> >
> >
> >Your warm  :-) is a mockery.
> >
> >
> >I just looked
> >in mirror
> >and there is
> >a red dot
> >on my forehead...
> >therefore I am.
> 
> Many in India have dots on their foreheads..
>  What does it mean if an Indian has a dot on their forehead?
>  The word “bindi” comes from the Sanskrit word “bindu,”meaning “dot” or “point.”
>  But it's not just any dot—it holds deep significance in Indian traditions.
>  In many cultures, it represents spiritual awakening and is connected to the “third eye,” the center of wisdom and intuition.
> 
> Anyways I have no dot, but I hope yours helps you.
> 
> I think if I was born in these days I would like to build my own Dino.
> Expect the 'build your own dino kits' on sale in Walmart any day now :-)
> 
> Build your own preCident???
> 
> My suggestion to you is: code some machine experiment.

-- 
The Starmaker -- To question the unquestionable, ask the unaskable,
to think the unthinkable, mention the unmentionable, say the unsayable, 
and challenge the unchallengeable.

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#664581

>I see, you one of 'those' that post links that you yourself don't
>read...
>
>
>"Mirror tests" have been done on chimpanzees, elephants, dolphins and
>magpies.
>
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness#:~:text=%5B39%5D-,Non%2Dhuman%20animals,-%5Bedit%5D
>
>
>
>German people are sooo lazy they take more sick days and any other euro
>country!
>
>
>Are you fat too?

It is sad that once you lost comprehension of the subject you start insulting.
Low IQ sign.

No I am not German.
FYI: I am an alien lifeform doing some investigation here to see if you humming-beans pose a danger to the Intergalactic Union.
If so, then you may be beamed-up.
We have zoos were we keep a few of your species for tourists.
Earth is not visited by many of us, as the intergalactic travel agency has advised against visiting earth as it is infested with humans and those are considered dangerous.
So much for Seti.

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#664586

Jan Panteltje wrote:
> 
> >I see, you one of 'those' that post links that you yourself don't
> >read...
> >
> >
> >"Mirror tests" have been done on chimpanzees, elephants, dolphins and
> >magpies.
> >
> >
> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness#:~:text=%5B39%5D-,Non%2Dhuman%20animals,-%5Bedit%5D
> >
> >
> >
> >German people are sooo lazy they take more sick days and any other euro
> >country!
> >
> >
> >Are you fat too?
> 
> It is sad that once you lost comprehension of the subject you start insulting.
> Low IQ sign.
> 
> No I am not German.
> FYI: I am an alien lifeform doing some investigation here to see if you humming-beans pose a danger to the Intergalactic Union.
> If so, then you may be beamed-up.
> We have zoos were we keep a few of your species for tourists.
> Earth is not visited by many of us, as the intergalactic travel agency has advised against visiting earth as it is infested with humans and those are considered dangerous.
> So much for Seti.


That which you believe is "self-awarness"...
according to Albert Einstein is simply a...optical delusion.

It's sad that you and everyone else deny 
that which you believe is "self-awarness"...a self is simply

an optical delusion.


There are no "self-awarness" life forms on earth...

and intelligent life does not exist on earth either.


But I know yous people need your "optical delusions" to survive.


Therefore you are not.


If you are not German, that means you are not fat.


wat other kind of people live in Germany?




-- 
The Starmaker -- To question the unquestionable, ask the unaskable,
to think the unthinkable, mention the unmentionable, say the unsayable, 
and challenge the unchallengeable.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#664588

The Starmaker wrote:
> 
> Jan Panteltje wrote:
> >
> > >I see, you one of 'those' that post links that you yourself don't
> > >read...
> > >
> > >
> > >"Mirror tests" have been done on chimpanzees, elephants, dolphins and
> > >magpies.
> > >
> > >
> > >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness#:~:text=%5B39%5D-,Non%2Dhuman%20animals,-%5Bedit%5D
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >German people are sooo lazy they take more sick days and any other euro
> > >country!
> > >
> > >
> > >Are you fat too?
> >
> > It is sad that once you lost comprehension of the subject you start insulting.
> > Low IQ sign.
> >
> > No I am not German.
> > FYI: I am an alien lifeform doing some investigation here to see if you humming-beans pose a danger to the Intergalactic Union.
> > If so, then you may be beamed-up.
> > We have zoos were we keep a few of your species for tourists.
> > Earth is not visited by many of us, as the intergalactic travel agency has advised against visiting earth as it is infested with humans and those are considered dangerous.
> > So much for Seti.
> 
> That which you believe is "self-awarness"...
> according to Albert Einstein is simply a...optical delusion.
> 
> It's sad that you and everyone else deny
> that which you believe is "self-awarness"...a self is simply
> 
> an optical delusion.
> 
> There are no "self-awarness" life forms on earth...
> 
> and intelligent life does not exist on earth either.
> 
> But I know yous people need your "optical delusions" to survive.
> 
> Therefore you are not.
> 
> If you are not German, that means you are not fat.
> 
> wat other kind of people live in Germany?

Of course, if you're Jewish you would have a big nose..

and if you are a chink you would have ...slanted eyes.

if you're Irish, you are considered the nigger of europe..

so wat are you?

a guinea?


 






-- 
The Starmaker -- To question the unquestionable, ask the unaskable,
to think the unthinkable, mention the unmentionable, say the unsayable, 
and challenge the unchallengeable.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#664626

>Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> 
>> >I see, you one of 'those' that post links that you yourself don't
>> >read...
>> >
>> >
>> >"Mirror tests" have been done on chimpanzees, elephants, dolphins and
>> >magpies.
>> >
>> >
>> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness#:~:text=%5B39%5D-,Non%2Dhuman%20animals,-%5Bedit%5D
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >German people are sooo lazy they take more sick days and any other euro
>> >country!
>> >
>> >
>> >Are you fat too?
>> 
>> It is sad that once you lost comprehension of the subject you start insulting.
>> Low IQ sign.
>> 
>> No I am not German.
>> FYI: I am an alien lifeform doing some investigation here to see if you humming-beans pose a danger to the Intergalactic
>> Union.
>> If so, then you may be beamed-up.
>> We have zoos were we keep a few of your species for tourists.
>> Earth is not visited by many of us, as the intergalactic travel agency has advised against visiting earth as it is infested
>> with humans and those are considered dangerous.
>> So much for Seti.
>
>
>That which you believe is "self-awarness"...
>according to Albert Einstein is simply a...optical delusion.
>
>It's sad that you and everyone else deny 
>that which you believe is "self-awarness"...a self is simply
>
>an optical delusion.
>
>
>There are no "self-awarness" life forms on earth...
>
>and intelligent life does not exist on earth either.
>
>
>But I know yous people need your "optical delusions" to survive.
>
>
>Therefore you are not.
>
>
>If you are not German, that means you are not fat.
>
>
>wat other kind of people live in Germany?

I do not know if you ever did some programing or neural net programing,
or ever designed some 'machine' that did some task.. You sound a bit confused

'Self awareness' is easy implemented by adding either some code or some hardware looking at what 
other parts of the system do, call it 'mirror neurons' or whatever,
as I explained in the 'sunscreen with voice added example.
No big deal and no dots on your head either. In that layer of extra (soft or hardware or both) MEMORY is
an important part, it enables 'learning', 
In a biological system the learning may be stored even in the configuration or in RNA or DNA in cells
and self modification of the neural net is also possible. We are, really, very simple.

Some religious fanatic groups (basically kids who were fed false concepts and made slaves of their masters)
will deny anything simple, make a big spectacle of a 'heaven or 'hell'
and deny life is everywhere in the universe. Even the first Viking Mars experiment that was positive for life war denounced hours later!
 http://www.gillevin.com/
We need a better system, US is dead.

Maybe as soon as kids learn to play with software and neural net software and bots, will they SEE that they are being used by some religious fanatic idiots,
 Design something.
Or maybe their DNS structure is modified to make them 'great believers'
In that case the species will either die, or hold back evolution for many years
because of religious concepts.
Ultimately Darwin applies, some other lifeform, from fungi to what not, may outlive and outsmart the human species.
Holy shit what goes:
 Pay money to your religious leader and you are a 'good believer'
In medieval times the sun was orbiting the earth and they had math to show where it was , and the planets, at any time
As full of bullshit as Albert E science was, and for a fact is still today.

For the real a  tit  fitty club, if Le Sage particles travel at (approximately) C and light is a state of those LS particles then
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges-Louis_Le_Sage
 we are done with Albert E. and if these LS particles originate in stars or holes (black or white duh), then the universe will expand
Throw in some slowing of the LS particles over time ..
Near to earth more Le Sage particles are intercepted by earth, matter gets less compressed, 'the pendulum get longer'
time slows down! And you should also see spectrum widening, as the particle flux is now different coming from different sides.
Now it is fun again, no singularities
at some point all particles are intercepted, no math bullshit divide by zero, MOVE ON .
There are no infinities in Nature, something will always give way.

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