Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #647306

Re: New version of my annotations to SRT

From	Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de>
Newsgroups	sci.physics.relativity
Subject	Re: New version of my annotations to SRT
Date	2024-02-18 06:25 +0100
Message-ID	<l3did3FbjrbU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(15 earlier) <l38cs7Fdpf1U1@mid.individual.net> <l38lo3Ffes0U1@mid.individual.net> <l3bcogFb2U1@mid.individual.net> <uqq2rl$c86g$1@dont-email.me> <uqqcjj$e49u$1@dont-email.me>

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Am 17.02.2024 um 14:33 schrieb Python:
> Le 17/02/2024 à 11:47, Mikko a écrit :
>> On 2024-02-17 09:36:42 +0000, Thomas Heger said:
>>
>>> Am 16.02.2024 um 09:46 schrieb Athel Cornish-Bowden:
>>>> On 2024-02-16 06:20:15 +0000, Thomas Heger said:
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [ … ]
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can you quote the sentence in question?
>>>>>
>>>>> sure:
>>>>> page 22, roughly in the middle
>>>>>
>>>>> "We will now determine the kinetic energy of the electron. If an
>>>>> electron moves from rest at the origin of co-ordinates of the system K
>>>>> along the axis of X under the action of an electrostatic force X, ..."
>>>>
>>>> Is this your translation? Is "the axis of X" what is normally called
>>>> the
>>>> x-axis in English? Maybe you could quote it in German so that someone
>>>> who knows more German than I do can comment. Anyway, I agree that
>>>> calling the abscissa axis the x-axis is not ideal, but it's very
>>>> commonly done. In that case X is not a variable.
>>>
>>> I'm actually critizising a certain text, not the work of Einstein per
>>> se.
>>>
>>> So, my topic is this particular English translation.
>>
>> When a real professor evaluates a translation the main criterion is
>> whether the translation preseves the meaning of the text.
>>
>
> Anyway this kinda sloppy translation is not quite a big deal, there
> is absolutely no ambiguity. Moreover Heger was pretending that "A"
> was used with two different meanings in a single sentence, not "X",
> so he is blatantly lying (again).
>
> The point is still that the way misinterpret part I.1. in Einstein's
> article is properly ridiculous. At first he didn't get that both clocks
> A and B were mutually at rest (it comes from... the very title of the
> whole paragraph), then he fantasized about clocks on Alpha Centaury
> using alien units and mechanism, while Einstein specified that both
> clocks were identical in all aspects. He persists, though, to consider
> that this part of the article is about clocks separated by interstellar
> distances while it is obviously about clocks involved in different part
> of a experiment in a hypothetical lab.
>
> And, worse, while Einstein never wrote that the time label of a distant
> event should be the time marked by a clock at that event position when
> the event happens (i.e. "no delay") he persists to affirm that this is
> the case even if the two equations in this part directly imply that
> the light propagation delay is taken into account.
>
> The absence of the word "delay" is far to subtle for him to grasp:
> you cannot talk about a delay (outside of a round-trip time) between
> two separated events if you do not define how clocks at these places
> are synchronized, which is the very point of the paragraph which
> start with a round-trip delay.

Actually Einstein wrote his paper, as if he wanted to ignore the delay 
or simply forgot to take it into consideration.

This is so, because Einstein had the idea, that clocks at different 
places show a different time (within the same frame of reference).

This would only make sense, if he had the plan to ignore the delay 
caused by the transit of the signal.

IMHO is this the opnly possible interpretation  of this part:
(page 3)

"Thus with the help of certain imaginary physical experiments we have 
settled what is to be understood by synchronous stationary clocks 
located at different places,  and have evidently obtained a deﬁnition of 
“simultaneous,” or “synchronous,” and of “time.” The “time” of an event 
is that which is given simultaneously with the event by a stationary 
clock located at the place of the event, this clock being synchronous, 
and indeed synchronous for all time determinations, with a speciﬁed 
stationary clock."

So, apparently Einstein wanted to make time dependent of the location 
(within a single frame of reference).

But time in locations that are stationary in respect to the coordinate 
system in question and in respect to the observer should have the same 
time, because 'frame of reference' means a combination of a time measure 
and a coordinate system, hence should not use different times for 
stationary points within that FoR.

But apparently Einstein had a different idea and wanted to assigne 
different time measures to different places.

This in turn would only make sense, if he wanted to ignore the delay and 
take the apparent time without compensation of the delay as remote time.

E.g.:

the delay from Moon to Earth is roughly a second.
A HUGE clock on the Moon would show (for instance) 1:00:00 p.m.

This clock is seen from Earth and shows  1:00:00 p.m.

What is the correct time on the Moon?

it is, of course  1:00:01 p.m., because that one second delay is not 
caused by a different time on the Moon, but by the delay.

But Einstein seemingly wanted  1:00:00 p.m. to be 'Moon-time', if 
1:00:00 p.m. is seen (hence ignored the delay).

TH

Thread

Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-02-11 11:00 +0100
  Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-02-13 07:44 +0100
    Re: New version of my annotations to SRT "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-02-13 14:50 +0100
      Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-02-14 08:17 +0100
        Re: New version of my annotations to SRT "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-02-14 11:05 +0100
        Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-02-14 19:05 +0200
        Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-02-14 18:41 +0100
          Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-02-15 06:58 +0100
            Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2024-02-15 01:21 -0500
              Re: New version of my annotations to SRT mlwozniak@wp.pl (MaciejWozniak) - 2024-02-15 11:19 +0000
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-02-16 06:56 +0100
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2024-02-16 13:50 -0500
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Josey Forakis Stamatelos <ks@osfisek.gr> - 2024-02-16 20:19 +0000
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-02-17 10:28 +0100
        Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2024-02-14 13:47 -0500
          Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2024-02-14 13:59 -0500
            Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Richard Hachel <pourquoi-pas@tiscali.fr> - 2024-02-14 19:12 +0000
            Re: New version of my annotations to SRT mlwozniak@wp.pl (MaciejWozniak) - 2024-02-15 06:16 +0000
  Re: New version of my annotations to SRT "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-02-13 13:40 +0100
    Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-02-13 18:18 +0100
      Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Richard Hachel <pourquoi-pas@tiscali.fr> - 2024-02-14 01:46 +0000
        Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-02-14 18:12 +0100
          Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Richard Hachel <pourquoi-pas@tiscali.fr> - 2024-02-14 18:59 +0000
            Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-02-14 20:07 +0100
              Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-02-14 20:09 +0100
              Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Richard Hachel <pourquoi-pas@tiscali.fr> - 2024-02-14 19:21 +0000
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-02-14 20:26 +0100
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Richard Hachel <pourquoi-pas@tiscali.fr> - 2024-02-14 20:23 +0000
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-02-14 21:26 +0100
  Re: New version of my annotations to SRT film.art@gmail.com (JanPB) - 2024-02-13 16:25 +0000
    Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-02-14 08:34 +0100
      Re: New version of my annotations to SRT "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-02-14 21:28 +0100
        Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-02-15 07:10 +0100
          Re: New version of my annotations to SRT "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-02-15 11:32 +0100
            Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> - 2024-02-15 19:04 +0100
            Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-02-16 07:20 +0100
              Re: New version of my annotations to SRT "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-02-16 09:43 +0100
              Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> - 2024-02-16 09:46 +0100
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-02-17 10:36 +0100
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-02-17 12:47 +0200
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-02-17 14:33 +0100
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-02-17 16:40 +0200
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> - 2024-02-17 15:55 +0100
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-02-17 17:16 +0100
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-02-18 06:48 +0100
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> - 2024-02-18 10:21 +0100
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-02-18 13:00 +0200
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT mlwozniak@wp.pl (MaciejWozniak) - 2024-02-17 15:13 +0000
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-02-17 17:15 +0100
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT mlwozniak@wp.pl (MaciejWozniak) - 2024-02-17 17:17 +0000
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-02-18 06:25 +0100
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-02-18 13:05 +0200
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-02-18 12:56 +0100
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-02-18 22:05 +0100
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT mlwozniak@wp.pl (MaciejWozniak) - 2024-02-18 21:36 +0000
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-02-18 22:59 +0100
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-02-18 05:47 +0100
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2024-02-18 01:07 -0500
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT mlwozniak@wp.pl (MaciejWozniak) - 2024-02-18 08:15 +0000
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Preston Voß von Grimmelshausen <rsqt@osonevnpv.de> - 2024-02-18 12:35 +0000
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-02-18 13:08 +0200
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Royal Iñíguez Ortega <ygerr@oratoytra.es> - 2024-02-18 12:10 +0000
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-02-18 13:28 +0100
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-02-19 06:56 +0100
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-02-19 11:35 +0200
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-02-19 21:47 +0100
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Cheng Huang Zhong <sksn@nnoghz.cn> - 2024-02-19 21:59 +0000
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-02-20 09:01 +0100
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2024-02-18 11:30 -0500
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Wilbert Oláh Barabás <rfbml@otrb.hu> - 2024-02-18 19:39 +0000
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-02-19 07:02 +0100
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2024-02-19 13:31 -0500
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-02-20 09:11 +0100
                Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-02-21 11:52 +0200
              Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-02-16 11:53 +0200
              Re: New version of my annotations to SRT "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-02-16 13:59 +0100
    Re: New version of my annotations to SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2024-02-14 00:11 -0800

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