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Re: Mercury

From "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Newsgroups comp.os.linux.misc, alt.unix.geeks
Subject Re: Mercury
Followup-To alt.unix.geeks
Date 2026-04-03 14:33 +0200
Message-ID <vko4amxk3s.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> (permalink)
References (20 earlier) <8f2cnUqvT4JIKFD0nZ2dnZfqnPgAAAAA@giganews.com> <njt0amx477.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> <8f2cnUWvT4L8SFD0nZ2dnZfqnPidnZ2d@giganews.com> <tr12amxjrq.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> <goqdne0QMPjDNVP0nZ2dnZfqnPednZ2d@giganews.com>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

Followups directed to: alt.unix.geeks

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{Note Followups-To} ==== means ====> do not post on comp.os.linux.misc

On 2026-04-02 19:33, c186282 wrote:
> On 4/2/26 07:51, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2026-04-02 04:32, c186282 wrote:
>>> On 4/1/26 21:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> On 2026-04-02 02:18, c186282 wrote:
>>>>> On 4/1/26 15:57, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>> On 2026-04-01 21:16, c186282 wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/1/26 13:58, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2026-04-01, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     One gripe with most LEDs though is that they may START
>>>>>>>>>     at 5K but soon 'warm up' to 4K or less. Maybe increasing
>>>>>>>>>     use of 'quantum dots' will stabilize that ?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     Oh well, I still have a few metal kerosene 'railroad lamps'
>>>>>>>>>     with the wick like Farmer Brown would have owned. Hey,
>>>>>>>>>     they always WORK ....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yeah, but they come nowhere near 4K, let alone 5K.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    More like 2K.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    However when the power lines are down ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    Hmm ... my mother remembered when one of the
>>>>>>>    older brothers wired the family home with
>>>>>>>    electricity. Before then, 'oil lamps'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A summer when I was about 9, we went to my mother village. They 
>>>>>> had no running water at the homes, no toilet. We used the stable. 
>>>>>> The house where we stayed had some electricity. They paid by the 
>>>>>> number of bulbs. There was one in the main room, but I don't 
>>>>>> remember about the bedrooms.
>>>>>
>>>>>    Well, Mom lived "on the farm" ... outhouse, hand-pumped
>>>>>    water. The brother (ugly guy but super-clever) wired the
>>>>>    whole house and then the electric company would connect.
>>>>>    He also apparently built their first radio from scrounged
>>>>>    parts, including a loudspeaker using an iron bar magnet
>>>>>    and glue-impregnated paper. I guess I kind of take after
>>>>>    him, though not QUITE as ugly :-)
>>>>
>>>> I built a "headphone", from a kit. Basically a coil and a iron thin 
>>>> sheet.
>>>
>>>    Uncle hand-wound the coil. That much he related.
>>>    Took a cardboard tube, kind of like what paper
>>>    towels come on, and soaked it in varnish to
>>>    make it rigid.
>>>
>>>    Dunno how he got everything symmetrical. Likely
>>>    wasn't a hi-fi radio, but good enough for voice.
>>>
>>>    Apparently there was a radio fix-it shop in
>>>    town and it had some left-over parts from
>>>    early 1920s models. He got the tubes and
>>>    likely transformers from there, one at a time.
>>>    Farmers and such didn't have lots of spare cash.
>>
>> The village where my mother was born, had no water, almost no 
>> electricity, and no cash, back in 1970. It was barter.
> 
>    My tale was of the early 1930s, depression-era America.


Yes, but this village was simply backwards, progress had not reached 
there. They had been that way maybe for centuries. I think there were 
many in the early 70's here like that. Those people emigrated to cities, 
and now the villages are empty and abandoned.

>    And there was a lot of barter. Cash was hard to come by.
> 
>> My mother told an anecdote of some entertainer with puppets that went 
>> around the villages. Kids wanted to see it but had no money, so they 
>> gave him eggs. Till the man had so many eggs that he exploded and said 
>> he wanted no more eggs! What could he do with dozens of eggs on the 
>> road? Some colourful expression he would have said that I have forgotten.
> 
>    Not so unusual for people, entertainers, doctors, to
>    work for 'trade' in years past. If you didn't get cash
>    then at least you'd eat or someone would fix your roof
>    or whatever.
> 
> 
>>>>>    I wonder if they heard that "day which will live
>>>>>    in infamy" speech on that radio ?
>>>>>
>>>>>    Not too long before he died he asked me to explain
>>>>>    exactly how a CPU worked - and I found I could not
>>>>>    provide a low-level description. Still can't, have
>>>>>    no idea how instruction-fetch/decode/data-routing
>>>>>    works at the bare transistor level.
>>>>
>>>> It is actually simple, but using gates, not transistors. Well, 
>>>> transistors is one step further, each group form a gate. And a group 
>>>> of gates form functions, like registers. It is overwhelming from 
>>>> scratch, but if someone explains a function at a time, it becomes 
>>>> "understandable". At least an old 8 bit CPU, like the 8085 or 6502. 
>>>> A modern one is more steps in complexity.
>>>
>>>    I tried to study a 4004 ... but still couldn't
>>>    really assemble a mental model of how the needed
>>>    steps were done at the lowest level.
>>>
>>>    'Gates' are made from transistors. Those I get
>>>    just fine ... but how to build a CPU "machine"
>>>    out of them ............
>>
>> You need somebody explaining it. Or a book that explains it. Trying to 
>> study it doesn't work. It is complex, but there is a trick, a method 
>> of explaining it and suddenly the mind does "click!" and you 
>> understand it all.
> 
> 
>    Could never get the 'click' alas. The sheer complexity of
>    how even a 'simple' CPU works is daunting. Oh well, too
>    old now, I'll never get it. Can form an abstract picture,
>    but the silicon details ... nope .....
> 

As I say, on your own it is impossible unless you are a genius. You need 
somebody that understand them to do the explaining, slowly. Or a really 
good book.

For me, it was a classroom at uni. I don't know if it was useful to 
somebody, though, we were never going to design one.

And I have forgotten most of it. I have the feeling, but I can not 
explain any.

>>>
>>>> Nobody can explain or understand a modern CPU from scratch.
>>>>
>>>> And I could not write the explanation of a simple CPU, either. I 
>>>> have forgotten many things.
>>>
>>>    SOME people "get it" - but very few. It's like
>>>    asking Mary-Lou how the metal in her car engine
>>>    is made/machined and why which parts are as
>>>    big/thick/shaped as they are. The engineering
>>>    just gets deeper and deeper.
>>>
>>>    Likely the last CPU gurus are now instructing
>>>    AIs on how to carry on the craft before they
>>>    get too old and senile. The next-gen ... only
>>>    the AIs will "get it" - humans won't - and thus
>>>    it becomes "magic" like in the ancient days.
>>>
>>>>>>>    I just know I've still got one in the back
>>>>>>>    of a closet somewhere ... heavy glass base
>>>>>>>    you fill with oil/kero, metal wick assembly
>>>>>>>    with a nearly 1-inch wick, delicate glass
>>>>>>>    chimney you pop on top. They still sell 'em.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    Amazed there weren't more fires back then.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe people used to be careful.
>>>>>
>>>>>    Well, you were super-careful or EVERYONE DIED HORRIBLY.
>>>>>    Today's western youth never learn that discipline.
>>>>>
>>>>>    Oddly ... that old, long-abandoned, family house
>>>>>    burned down - because a storm blew a tree onto
>>>>>    the electric transformer !!!
>>>>
>>>> Ow!
>>>
>>>    And a Great Irony too !!!
>>>
>>>    The place survived oil lamps and candles almost
>>>    100 years - only to be nuked by safe/modern
>>>    electricity.
>>
>> Heh.
>>
>>>
>>>    Great old house ... made of creosote saturated
>>>    heavy lumber harvested from the property. No
>>>    termite could eat it, no storm could push it over.
>>
>>
>> Isn't it smelly?
> 
>    The smell goes away, in about 20 years  :-)

:-D

> 
>    But the house lasted, termite-free, for about
>    100 years. Might have made 200, except for that
>    sparky utility pole.
> 
>    When the last relative living there died and the
>    property was going up for sale my Mom and I did
>    a last tour. One thing I did was slice off a bit
>    of the original wood, just a sliver. Have it
>    somewhere. So, symbolically ....
> 

:-)

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

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                Re: GNU Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2026-03-08 14:55 -0700
                Re: GNU Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-09 00:27 +0000
                Re: GNU lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> - 2026-03-08 22:02 -0600
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-07 16:12 -0800
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-08 01:05 +0000
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-07 21:30 -0800
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-08 16:52 +1100
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-08 14:28 -0700
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-07 23:32 +0000
                Re: GNU Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2026-03-08 16:21 -0700
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-08 09:59 +1100
                Re: GNU Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-08 09:43 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-07 23:27 +0000
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-07 23:04 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-07 22:40 +0000
                Re: GNU Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-03-08 07:39 +0100
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-08 07:39 +0000
                Re: GNU Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-03-08 09:12 +0100
                Re: GNU Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-03-08 08:59 -0400
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-08 17:44 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-08 11:42 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-08 17:52 +0000
                Re: GNU athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-03-08 19:51 +0000
                Re: GNU Phil <phil@anonymous.invalid> - 2026-03-08 20:23 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-08 20:52 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-09 13:59 +0000
                Re: GNU Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-03-08 16:32 -0400
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-08 20:46 +0000
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-09 10:02 +1100
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-09 00:19 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-09 14:04 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-09 20:52 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-09 23:57 +0000
                Re: GNU Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 00:31 -0400
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-09 05:00 +0000
                Re: GNU Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> - 2026-03-09 22:48 +1300
                Re: GNU Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-03-09 10:14 +0100
                Re: GNU Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-03-10 09:32 +0200
                Re: GNU John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 09:10 -0700
                Re: GNU Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-03-09 01:16 +0200
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-09 00:58 +0000
                Re: GNU Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 01:07 -0400
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-09 06:22 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-09 08:00 +0000
                Re: GNU athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-03-09 10:09 +0000
                Re: GNU Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-03-09 06:16 +0000
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-09 06:24 +0000
                Re: GNU Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-03-09 06:54 +0000
                Re: GNU Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-03-09 07:37 +0000
                Re: GNU Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-03-10 09:37 +0200
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-10 10:37 +0000
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-11 10:09 +1100
                Re: GNU Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-03-10 13:25 +0000
                Re: GNU Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.invalid> - 2026-03-10 14:26 +0000
                Re: GNU Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-10 19:35 +0000
                Re: GNU snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2026-03-10 15:49 +0000
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-15 12:54 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-15 12:07 +0000
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-16 12:11 +1100
                Re: GNU Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-03-16 07:07 +0000
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-16 07:50 +0000
                Re: GNU Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> - 2026-03-16 22:03 +1300
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-16 13:00 +0000
                Re: GNU Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2026-03-17 18:08 +0000
                Re: GNU Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-03-16 09:28 +0000
                Re: GNU athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-03-16 10:36 +0000
                Re: GNU Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-03-16 08:58 +0100
                Re: GNU Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-03-16 09:28 +0000
                Re: GNU Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> - 2026-03-16 09:34 +1300
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-15 22:23 +0100
                Re: GNU Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-15 23:38 +0000
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-15 21:24 -0700
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-16 12:56 +0000
                Re: GNU Janet <nobody@home.com> - 2026-03-16 12:27 +0000
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-15 22:27 +0000
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-16 13:29 +1100
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-16 06:29 +0000
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-16 17:52 +1100
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-16 00:32 -0700
                Re: GNU Janet <nobody@home.com> - 2026-03-16 12:41 +0000
                Re: GNU John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-16 08:55 -0700
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-17 10:03 +1100
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-17 01:01 +0000
                Re: GNU Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-03-17 08:18 +0100
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-17 19:03 +0000
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-17 12:27 -0700
                Re: GNU Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-03-17 22:23 +0100
                Re: GNU Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-03-17 22:18 +0100
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-18 10:42 +1100
                Re: GNU lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> - 2026-03-17 22:29 -0600
                Re: GNU Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-17 19:35 +0000
                Re: GNU John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-17 12:39 -0700
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-17 15:55 -0700
                Re: GNU Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-03-18 07:47 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-18 09:42 +0000
                Re: GNU Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 18:02 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-17 09:06 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-09 08:08 +0000
                Re: GNU Charles Hope <clh@candehope.me.uk> - 2026-03-09 09:45 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-09 14:12 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-09 21:52 +0000
                Re: GNU Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-09 23:07 +0000
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-10 16:28 +1100
                Re: GNU Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-03-10 08:57 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-10 10:30 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-10 17:53 +0000
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-15 19:24 +0100
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-10 05:34 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-10 10:32 +0000
                Re: GNU Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-03-10 12:43 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-10 11:47 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-10 18:10 +0000
                Re: GNU Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-10 19:35 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-10 18:06 +0000
                Re: GNU Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-10 19:35 +0000
                Re: GNU Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-10 19:35 +0000
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-11 10:13 +1100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-11 09:57 +0000
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-11 21:41 +1100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-11 12:19 +0000
                Re: GNU vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> - 2026-03-11 14:19 +0000
                Re: GNU Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2026-03-12 02:49 +0000
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-12 04:51 +0000
                Encodings (was: Re: GNU) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-12 10:36 +0000
                Re: GNU liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-03-11 17:55 +0000
                Re: GNU snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2026-03-11 19:03 +0000
                Re: GNU richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2026-03-11 19:11 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-11 20:22 +0000
                Re: GNU snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2026-03-11 22:06 +0000
                Re: GNU lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> - 2026-03-11 11:40 -0600
                Re: GNU lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> - 2026-03-10 13:56 -0600
                Re: GNU lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> - 2026-03-09 22:10 -0600
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-09 21:17 +1100
                Re: GNU Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> - 2026-03-10 11:40 +1300
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-10 16:34 +1100
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-09 08:07 +0000
                Re: GNU Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-03-09 13:29 +0000
                Re: GNU athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-03-09 15:48 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-09 20:49 +0000
                Re: GNU snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2026-03-09 14:36 +0000
                Re: GNU lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> - 2026-03-09 11:35 -0600
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-09 14:07 +0000
                Re: GNU Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-03-09 14:11 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-09 14:25 +0000
                Re: GNU Charles Hope <clh@candehope.me.uk> - 2026-03-09 15:45 +0000
                Re: GNU Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 00:49 -0400
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-09 16:42 +1100
                Re: GNU Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-03-09 08:18 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-09 14:14 +0000
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-09 20:32 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-09 08:10 +0000
                Re: GNU lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> - 2026-03-09 12:51 -0600
                Re: GNU Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 15:23 -0400
                Re: GNU Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-03-10 09:42 +0200
                Re: GNU Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-03-10 09:46 +0200
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-11 20:59 +0100
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-08 20:58 +0000
                Re: GNU John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 09:04 -0700
                Re: GNU athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-03-09 10:00 +0000
                Re: GNU lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> - 2026-03-08 22:06 -0600
                Re: GNU Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-03-09 06:25 +0000
                Re: GNU athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-03-09 10:28 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-08 11:38 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-08 16:59 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-07 12:34 +0000
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-07 22:37 +0100
                Re: GNU athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-03-07 17:00 +0000
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-07 22:35 +0100
                Re: GNU lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> - 2026-03-07 16:25 -0600
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-08 14:30 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-08 06:02 +0000
                Re: GNU Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-03-08 07:42 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-08 11:42 +0000
                Re: GNU Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2026-03-08 16:40 -0700
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-09 14:20 +0000
                Re: GNU Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-07 18:41 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-07 23:37 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-07 22:33 +0000
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-15 22:05 +0100
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-08 09:53 +1100
                Re: GNU Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-03-08 07:45 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-08 11:56 +0000
                Re: GNU Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-03-08 20:54 +0000
                Re: GNU Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> - 2026-03-09 22:08 +1300
                Re: GNU Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-03-09 13:31 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-07 12:28 +0000
                Re: GNU Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-03-08 03:01 +0200
                Re: GNU snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2026-03-08 01:40 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-08 04:37 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-08 06:22 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-08 07:32 +0000
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-08 20:27 +1100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-08 11:30 +0000
                Re: GNU richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2026-03-08 11:41 +0000
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-09 10:09 +1100
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-08 16:56 +0000
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-09 10:13 +1100
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-15 22:13 +0100
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-15 15:27 -0700
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-16 12:55 +0000
                Re: GNU Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> - 2026-03-16 09:13 -0400
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-16 13:19 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-16 20:40 +0000
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-16 14:32 -0700
                Re: GNU Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-03-16 17:48 -0400
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-16 15:15 -0700
                Re: GNU Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-03-16 20:00 -0400
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-17 11:23 +1100
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-17 00:51 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-17 01:23 +0000
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-17 02:41 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-17 08:50 +0000
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-17 12:58 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-17 12:22 +0000
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-17 15:24 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-17 19:05 +0000
                Re: GNU Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-03-17 10:16 -0400
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-17 19:05 +0000
                Re: GNU Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> - 2026-03-17 11:49 -0400
                Re: GNU Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2026-03-17 17:14 -0700
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 00:18 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-17 19:09 +0000
                Re: GNU Janet <nobody@home.com> - 2026-03-17 13:38 +0000
                Re: GNU John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-16 15:08 -0700
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-16 15:18 -0700
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-17 01:25 +0000
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-16 21:47 -0700
                Re: GNU Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-03-18 05:35 +0200
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-18 10:16 +0000
                Re: GNU Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-03-20 05:53 +0200
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-20 08:46 +0000
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-20 11:32 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-20 10:36 +0000
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-20 11:32 +0100
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-20 08:26 -0700
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-17 08:51 +0000
                Re: GNU John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-17 09:26 -0700
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-17 19:10 +0000
                Re: GNU Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-16 23:11 +0000
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-17 10:27 +1100
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-17 01:27 +0000
                Re: GNU "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-03-17 10:33 +0000
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-17 02:49 +0100
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-17 02:59 +0000
                Re: GNU Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> - 2026-03-17 23:08 +1300
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-17 13:24 +0100
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-17 15:33 +0100
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-16 21:51 -0700
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-17 06:23 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-17 08:58 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-17 08:55 +0000
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-17 13:24 +0100
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-17 18:56 +0000
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-17 22:59 +0000
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-18 03:07 +0100
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 04:01 +0000
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-18 14:03 +0100
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-17 01:20 +0000
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-16 22:08 -0700
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-17 09:02 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-17 08:47 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-17 08:47 +0000
                Re: GNU "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-03-17 10:41 +0000
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-18 11:04 +1100
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-18 14:03 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-18 13:14 +0000
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-17 10:21 +1100
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-17 00:55 +0000
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-17 02:53 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-17 09:10 +0000
                Re: GNU Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> - 2026-03-17 11:43 -0400
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-17 22:37 +0100
                Re: GNU Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> - 2026-03-17 18:43 -0400
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-18 03:15 +0100
                Re: GNU Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 02:19 +0000
                Re: GNU snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2026-03-18 02:29 +0000
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-17 20:17 -0700
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-18 09:31 +0000
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-18 11:41 +0100
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-18 18:28 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-18 18:31 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-18 23:26 +0000
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-19 11:48 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-19 12:17 +0000
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-19 13:31 +0100
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-19 14:24 +0100
                Re: GNU Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2026-04-01 14:30 +0200
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-04-02 10:48 +1100
                Re: GNU Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 06:15 +0000
                Re: GNU lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> - 2026-03-18 10:16 -0600
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-18 09:40 -0700
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-18 16:56 +0000
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-18 20:00 +0100
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-18 23:49 +0000
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-19 11:48 +0100
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-19 13:34 +0100
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-19 14:24 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-19 14:06 +0000
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-19 22:32 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-20 07:38 +0000
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-20 11:07 +0100
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-19 22:22 +0100
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-20 11:32 +0100
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-21 20:34 +0100
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-21 22:32 +0100
                Re: GNU snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2026-03-19 15:24 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-19 17:50 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 19:58 +0000
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-20 11:32 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-19 12:19 +0000
                Re: GNU Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 17:36 -0700
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-19 03:01 +0100
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-18 19:16 -0700
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-19 13:36 +0100
                Re: GNU Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 18:02 +0000
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-19 00:24 +0000
                Re: GNU lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> - 2026-03-18 22:48 -0600
                Re: GNU Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2026-03-18 22:45 +0100
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-19 10:01 +0100
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-18 11:42 +0100
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-20 12:39 +0100
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-21 20:38 +0100
                Re: GNU Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-21 20:22 +0000
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-21 22:32 +0100
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-22 03:19 +0100
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-22 10:52 +0100
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-22 15:12 +0100
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-22 18:37 +0100
                Re: GNU Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-03-22 16:31 -0400
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-22 23:31 +0100
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-22 23:18 +0000
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-23 11:57 +0100
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-23 22:15 +1100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-23 11:30 +0000
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-23 13:55 +0100
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-24 09:15 +0000
                Re: GNU Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-03-24 10:17 +0000

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