Re: Over-Elaborate Shell Scripting

From	Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.unix.shell, comp.os.linux.misc
Subject	Re: Over-Elaborate Shell Scripting
Date	2026-03-13 22:37 +0100
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<10p2030$3kf07$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(4 earlier) <10ouhk5$22anv$1@dont-email.me> <10ov1lu$27u8r$2@dont-email.me> <10ov2m4$296s5$3@dont-email.me> <10ov520$27u8r$5@dont-email.me> <10p0sjs$30rut$11@dont-email.me>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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On 2026-03-13 12:32, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 12/03/2026 19:44, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>> On 12.03.26 20:03, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>> As with SQL I have always found it quicker to do anything complex, in 
>>> C, as it is in fact quicker than trying to do it in SQL, or regexp, 
>>> both in terms of design time and indeed execution time.
>>
>> Are you saying here that if, for example, you have a pattern to match
>> then you would implement that natively in "C" than in regexp?
>>
> Beyond a very limited complexity, yes.

One point with repexps is that with them you are able to control
complexity for a very specific class of tasks; tasks that can be
described within a Chomsky-3 grammar or expressed by finite state
machines. A comparable explicitly programmed programming language
code (say, with a context free grammar) for a respective regexp is
usually clumsier.

> It's very hard to documents a regexp .

A regexp is an expression from a language. It is a clear definition
with rules simpler than of a programming language.

But you can of course document the regexps you write if it gets too
complicated (for you or generally). You can also compose regexps to
manage complexity. Or name them. - You have all options, similar to
the possibilities that you have in typical programming languages.
And, as with programming languages, you should learn the language!
But Regular Expressions are much simpler. While you may find slight
differences in the meta-syntax the basic principle is the same.

> [snip SQL topic]
> 
> 
>> Presumed I understood you correctly, then, frankly, you are obviously
>> just lacking the necessary expertise and blame Regular Languages (and
>> their uses and users) just due to ignorance. 
> 
> Its not a matter of ignorance. That's what wannabe code gurus like to 
> say, because to them 'guru knowledge' is more important than getting the 
> job done on time, on budget and leaving code that can actually be 
> maintained.

(I already noticed that you have a very peculiar image in mind.)

I spoke about the necessity to learn languages, whether regular or
context free. And that lacking knowledge is just ignorance.

I'm aware that typical regular expression syntaxes appear cryptic.
(And I understand the reluctance to learn them.)

(To move that/your problem to "gurus" you met in your life appears
to be nothing but a red herring and is obviously only demonstrating
your unwillingness to learn or understand regexps.)

> 
> My point being exactly that to gain the expertise does not lead to a 
> practicable solution *anyway*.

Within the naturally given domain of Regular Languages you can use
them to quickly create usable (practicable) solutions in appropriate
requirement contexts. (I do that all the time. They're really very
useful.)

>> There's nothing wrong not
>> knowing every aspect of CS and IT, but your generalizing imputations
>> based on that are misguided.
>>
> Unfortunately you have just made my point for me.
> 
> I have always been under pressure to produce efficient  working 
> comprehensible and maintainable code in a short time.

And regular expressions are one part of it. - Of course, if you don't
know them, how to use them, what they are for, it may be a hindrance
to use them efficiently. - As said; you have to learn them. It's not
different to other things in IT you have to learn. (You don't get it
for free, by divine inspiration, or else.)

> 
> Regexps simply don't fit the bill. Nor do overly complex SQL statements. 
> I tried both and gave up after I had already taken longer to produce 
> code that ran way slower than a custom solution in C did
> 
> There's even a video about it
> 
> "How on Earth does ^.?$|^(..+?)\1+$ produce primes?"

(This is not a Regular Expression; it uses back references. Just BTW.)

> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vbk0TwkokM
> 
> 18 minutes of documentation to explain one regular expression
> 
> The same algorithm would be just a few lines of python or C and could 
> include comments

It wouldn't occur to me to use regexps to create (or match) primes.

I suggest to not use fancy Youtube videos but a book or basic tutorial
if you want to get knowledge on that topic.

Janis

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Over-Elaborate Shell Scripting Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-12 07:21 +0000
  Re: Over-Elaborate Shell Scripting c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-03-12 03:42 -0400
    Re: Over-Elaborate Shell Scripting gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2026-03-12 12:34 +0000
      Re: Over-Elaborate Shell Scripting Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-03-12 15:08 +0000
        Just out of curiosity... (Was: Over-Elaborate Shell Scripting) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2026-03-12 15:22 +0000
          Re: Just out of curiosity... (Was: Over-Elaborate Shell Scripting) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2026-03-12 15:29 +0000
          Re: Just out of curiosity... Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-03-12 16:31 +0000
          Re: Just out of curiosity... (Was: Over-Elaborate Shell Scripting) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-12 19:04 +0000
      Re: Over-Elaborate Shell Scripting Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2026-03-12 17:58 -0400
  Re: Over-Elaborate Shell Scripting Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-03-12 09:00 +0100
    Re: Over-Elaborate Shell Scripting Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-03-12 10:59 +0100
      Re: Over-Elaborate Shell Scripting gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2026-03-12 12:44 +0000
        Re: Over-Elaborate Shell Scripting The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-12 14:12 +0000
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                Re: Over-Elaborate Shell Scripting The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-13 11:37 +0000
                Re: Over-Elaborate Shell Scripting rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-13 19:24 +0000
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                Re: Over-Elaborate Shell Scripting The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-13 21:52 +0000
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                Re: Over-Elaborate Shell Scripting c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-03-14 02:35 -0400
                Re: Over-Elaborate Shell Scripting rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-14 18:38 +0000
                Re: Over-Elaborate Shell Scripting The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-14 12:38 +0000
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                Re: Over-Elaborate Shell Scripting c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-03-17 02:08 -0400
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            Re: Over-Elaborate Shell Scripting The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-12 19:03 +0000
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                Re: Over-Elaborate Shell Scripting The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-13 11:32 +0000
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                Re: Over-Elaborate Shell Scripting The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-13 13:33 +0000
                Re: Over-Elaborate Shell Scripting Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-03-13 23:17 +0000
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                Re: Over-Elaborate Shell Scripting Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-13 21:58 +0000
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                Re: Over-Elaborate Shell Scripting The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-14 12:30 +0000
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                Re: Over-Elaborate Shell Scripting The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-13 21:54 +0000
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                Re: Unsettling bash tutorial The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-16 17:44 +0000
                Re: Unsettling bash tutorial Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.invalid> - 2026-03-16 18:03 +0000
                Re: Unsettling bash tutorial Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-16 11:09 -0700
                Re: Unsettling bash tutorial rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-16 19:53 +0000
                Re: Unsettling bash tutorial The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-16 20:25 +0000
                Re: Unsettling bash tutorial c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-03-17 02:10 -0400
                Re: Unsettling bash tutorial c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-03-17 02:05 -0400
                Re: Unsettling bash tutorial Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-17 19:35 +0000
                Re: Unsettling bash tutorial c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-03-17 01:57 -0400
                Re: Unsettling bash tutorial rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-16 19:49 +0000
                Re: Unsettling bash tutorial c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-03-17 02:59 -0400
            Re: Unsettling bash tutorial ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-03-15 02:20 +0000
              Re: Unsettling bash tutorial Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-15 08:08 +0000
                Re: Unsettling bash tutorial gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2026-03-15 12:39 +0000

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