Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #12385

Re: Aspect questions?

From	Lew <noone@lewscanon.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.java.programmer
Subject	Re: Aspect questions?
Date	2012-02-26 13:43 -0800
Organization	albasani.net
Message-ID	<jie92m$9nd$1@news.albasani.net> (permalink)
References	(6 earlier) <XnsA004B034AE631jpnasty@94.75.214.39> <jibn8n$17s$1@news.albasani.net> <XnsA004BD220634Ejpnasty@94.75.214.39> <jibso4$bv2$1@news.albasani.net> <XnsA0057F0ABEC37jpnasty@94.75.214.39>

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On 02/26/2012 09:22 AM, Novice wrote:
> Lew wrote:
>
>> Novice wrote:
>>> Lew wrote:
>>>> You don't create multiple log files, one per class. Where did you
>>>> get that notion?
>>>>
>>> Huh? You seem to be contradicting yourself. Are you saying I should
>>> create one logging file per class or not? And why have a separate
>>> logging
>>
>> No. I never said nor implied that you should have one logging file per
>> class. That one's on you, brother.
>>
> Okay. Your phrasing was a bit confusing. I read it as "You don't create
> multiple files, (you create) one per class." Apparently that's not what
> you mean after all. Sorry.

The sentence began with "You don't...". I fail to see what can be confusing 
there.  An appositive phrase doesn't invert the sense of the predicate.

Which leaves the question of how we got the miscommunication in the first 
place, when I never suggested such a thing.

>>> file for each class? Isn't it more logical to have all the messages
>>> that come from one program, say Foo, appear in the same log? Isn't
>>> the poor
>>
>> Yes, but why are you arguing a point not in dispute?
>>
> Because your phrasing seemed to imply that I DID want one log per class.
>
>>> Sysop going to be excessively busy if he has to check a separate log
>>> for each and every one of the - hundreds? thousands? - of classes in
>>> the system? Wouldn't it be more logical to group logs on the basis of
>>> which application is invoking the class? Therefore, if method
>>> getCurrentWeekdayName had problems while executing program Foo, the
>>> Foo log would contain the information? Wouldn't the person running
>>> Foo be the one that's notifying the SysOp that something screwy just
>>> happened while running Foo? Then the name of the application would be
>>> a huge head start in finding the problem: just look in the Foo log
>>> and all will be revealed. Or at least enough to get started.
>>
>> How you do go on.
>>
>> No one is suggesting anything like that scenario. so cool your jets,
>> Cadet!
>>
>> Wow.
>>
> Sorry. I was confused by what you seemed to imply.

"Seemed" foists the responsibility off. I didn't do the "seeming".

...

> As for the term "configuration file" I didn't realize you meant
> "logging.properties". That was my confusion there; I don't recall hearing
> that called a configuration file before and thought you were talking
> about something completely new and outside my experience.

I used the term in the exact same sense as the logging library documentation 
and in computer programming generally.

>>> If this is some routine thing that professional developers do, great.
>>> I obviously need to know about it. Can you point me to a tutorial or
>>> whatever that will explain what they are and how to create them?
>>
>> GIYF, dude.
>>
> GIYF??

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=GIYF
...

> I expect that they are assuming that each project has a unique package
> name. Therefore, if my company is novice.com, then the Foo project will

Huh?

Have you read the Java tutorial?
<http://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/java/package/index.html>

> presumably have a package named com.novice.foo and the Bar project will

Don't presume; design.  It is very possible that the "Foo" project will not 
have a package 'com.novice.foo', if it has 'com.novice.foo.qux', 
'com.novice.foo.bleh' and so on.

> have a package named com.novice.bar. Then, the logging for the Foo
> project will be based on Logger.getLogger("com.novice.foo"), right? Then
> every class within the Foo project will have the line:
>
> Logger logger = Logger.getLogger("com.novice.foo");

No, it won't. First, you have completely ignored that I said "one logger per 
class".  How did you distort that into "one logger per package"? Second, you 
don't design packages for the logger, you design loggers for the packages.

> Have I got this so far?

Not yet.

> If so, the next logical step would be to treat all the stuff in the
> Common project similarly. If I put all of those classes in package
> com.novice.common, then each class would have this:

STOP!

I don't know how you make these leaps, and I am defeated as to how to advise 
you not to. You go on for paragraphs about bad ideas that were never suggested 
to you.

> Logger logger = Logger.getLogger("com.novice.common");
>
> Or would it be better to get a reference to the logger within Foo and
> pass that to the classes in the Common project so that they write to the
> logger used by the instantiating class from Foo?

Once again, I repeat, and you may recall the Javadoc quotes I provided 
upthread on this matter, getting a logger with a particular name gets a 
reference to that same-named logger. Already. Without additional complication 
on your part. It's built in. You don't need to reinvent it. It already 
happens. All you have to do is give the same name. You will already have 
gotten the reference. You don't have to pass it anywhere. It's already there. 
Read the Javadocs. Again. And again. And again. And again. Don't read what 
isn't in there - read what it says. It says that if you give the 'getLogger()' 
the same name, it will return a reference to the same logger.

Aside from that, I have no idea at all what you intend to say by, "so that 
they write to the logger used by the instantiating class from Foo". What 
precisely do you mean there?

> Now, as it turns out, I've actually got a bunch of packages in project
> Common. I'm separating different kinds of common classes via packages.
> I'm not sure now if that is a good idea or a bad one. I've got separate

READ THE TUTORIAL!

> packages with the Common project for utilities, for classes dealing with
> preference handling, for classes that are just simple lookups (including
> Enums), classes that create generic panels for GUIs, etc. So maybe I need
> to ask first if it is a bad idea to separate my common code into
> categories or if it is better to lump it all together into a single
> package.

It is better to group types into packages.

> If keeping the separate packages is a good idea, then I need a bit of
> guidance on whether there should be a separate logger for each package or
> whether I'm better to write all messages from all Common classes to the
> same logger, e.g. com.novice.common despite their different packages.

Once again, as I stated upthread some time ago and others have reiterated, the 
common practice (but by no means the only one) is one logger per class.

Loggers "inherit", so that gives some flexibility in how you do things.

> Now, if Project Foo only uses code from one other project, Common, I only
> have two logs to worry about, the one that has all the Foo stuff and the
> one that has all the Common stuff. That's not too bad. Then again, maybe

What?  You should only have one log, unless they use different libraries to log.

> it would be better to use Logger.getLogger("com.novice") and write every
> message from every class I write to the very same log, regardless of
> project. What is the best practice here?

Huh? again.

What you name the logger is not connected to where it logs. Where it logs is 
determined by the configuration for that logger. Usually it'll write to the 
same log as its parent. The best practice here is to make sense in the first 
place. You ask a question about naming a logger, but cast it in turns of where 
it logs. Apples and oranges, dude. Naming a logger doesn't change where it 
logs. Read the logger documentation, please. All this information is in the 
documentation.

The configuration determines where the log goes. No changes to logger names 
are needed, just change the configuration file and restart.

We're starting to make the same points over and over again. It's frustrating 
to provide you an answer and have you come back with the same question. Please 
assimilate the answers already given.

To summarize the repeated points here:

- Configuration files usually suffice to configure logging. You rarely need to 
programmatically configure logging, and should resist doing so. Otherwise you 
defeat the point of changing logging strategy without having to rebuild.

- The logger name determines which logger instance you get. NOT, and I repeat, 
*NOT* where it logs.

- Conventionally, and usually most usefully, loggers are named for the class 
in which they are used. So the logger for 'com.lewscanon.example.Foo' would 
come via 'getLogger(com.lewscanon.example.Foo.class.getName())'.

and emergingly,

- Packages are to organize your program irrespective of logging strategy.

Some of this is material in the basic tutorial, particular the info about 
packages, and should be mastered first before, say, learning how to code a 
for-each loop.

> I feel like I'm starting to see what you have in mind but I hope you stay
> with me for just a bit longer until we've hashed the last bits out. I
> don't want to go off in the wrong direction again so I need your
> confirmation that I'm starting to get it now.

Your commitment is duly noted and quite laudable.

But "starting" is still a long way from "hash ... the last bits out". So I 
hope your patience is up to the task. You lack certain Java fundamentals.

-- 
Lew
Honi soit qui mal y pense.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Friz.jpg

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Thread

Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-24 20:10 +0000
  Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-24 13:05 -0800
    Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 05:47 +0000
      Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-24 23:40 -0800
        Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 17:02 +0000
          Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 12:08 -0800
            Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 22:12 +0000
              Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 14:27 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 23:29 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 18:33 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 14:38 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:49 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:53 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 18:17 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 16:01 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 17:22 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 12:25 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 21:08 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:33 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 17:05 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 20:18 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 21:29 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-27 05:44 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:37 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-28 00:04 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-28 01:39 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 14:54 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-28 17:24 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 04:53 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:08 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 05:12 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 21:38 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 17:27 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 12:22 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 22:50 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 17:24 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:00 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-02-29 09:14 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-29 09:55 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 21:31 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-29 23:06 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 04:33 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-04 23:00 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-04 17:07 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 15:33 +0000
                JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-03-05 08:38 -0800
                Re: JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 17:40 +0000
                Re: JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-03-05 21:25 -0800
                Re: JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-06 17:23 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-05 23:45 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-03-06 06:03 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-06 21:05 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:11 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:09 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-26 23:43 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 05:20 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-26 21:32 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 17:36 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 13:18 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 14:05 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 14:33 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 14:53 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 15:16 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 17:57 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 22:59 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-28 05:50 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:03 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-27 13:17 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 22:55 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-27 05:58 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 18:14 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-28 00:12 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-28 02:04 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:22 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:11 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:14 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-28 23:09 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:25 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-01 00:22 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-01 01:44 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-29 23:24 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-01 21:19 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 01:52 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-03 01:39 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 15:38 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-05 22:50 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-05 23:46 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-03-06 08:14 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-06 21:23 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-08 20:10 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 01:49 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-01 22:38 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-03-02 06:05 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 14:25 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-03-02 18:10 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 14:12 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-02 08:57 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 15:57 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-05 23:48 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-07 20:33 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-03-07 13:09 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:20 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-02 14:28 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:16 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-26 10:10 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 20:52 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 13:48 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 13:47 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:40 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:36 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-26 16:04 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 19:38 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 17:09 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-26 20:08 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 19:43 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-27 22:03 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:18 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 13:43 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 01:11 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 21:49 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 18:37 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 12:28 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-28 00:55 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 17:37 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:57 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-02-28 03:21 -0600
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-28 09:19 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:12 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-28 05:59 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-28 17:27 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 16:07 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:26 -0500
              Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 18:22 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-25 20:22 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 22:20 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-26 00:04 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 00:21 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 00:33 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:43 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-26 11:18 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-26 11:04 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-26 10:22 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 21:04 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 14:01 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:46 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 09:50 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:38 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 20:49 +0000
      Re: Aspect questions? jlp <jlp@jlp.com> - 2012-02-25 09:47 +0100
        Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 17:03 +0000
          Re: Aspect questions? jlp <jlp@jlp.com> - 2012-02-25 20:02 +0100
      Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-25 10:20 -0400
        Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-25 08:18 -0800
          Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 12:04 -0500
        Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 17:17 +0000
          Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-25 18:40 -0400
          Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 18:18 -0500
      Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 09:21 -0500
      Re: Aspect questions? Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-02-25 14:35 -0800
  Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-24 14:30 -0800
    Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-24 19:47 -0500
      Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-24 20:52 -0800
        Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 09:31 -0500
        Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-25 11:05 -0400
          Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 12:20 -0800
  Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-24 19:00 -0500
  Re: Aspect questions? Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2012-02-25 00:22 +0000

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