Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #12595

Re: Aspect questions?

From	Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.java.programmer
Subject	Re: Aspect questions?
References	(21 earlier) <jin86o$a91$1@news.albasani.net> <XnsA009D4C26E08Bjpnasty@94.75.214.39> <jipptl$6ar$1@news.albasani.net> <UX04r.20550$Ai4.5115@newsfe18.iad> <XnsA00A60E176489jpnasty@94.75.214.39>
Message-ID	<wzb4r.24086$Pc2.13688@newsfe13.iad> (permalink)
Organization	Public Usenet Newsgroup Access
Date	2012-03-02 18:10 -0400

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On 12-03-02 10:25 AM, Novice wrote:
> Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> wrote in news:UX04r.20550
> $Ai4.5115@newsfe18.iad:
> 
>> On 12-03-02 02:38 AM, Lew wrote:
>>> Novice wrote:
>> [ SNIP ]
>>
>>>> skills. You send a resume which doesn't claims no knowledge of C++ at
>>>> all. How do you even get an interview let alone persuade them that 
> you
>>>> can be productive in that language in short order?
>>>
>>> I don't recommend trying to learn C++ quickly, nor claiming expertise 
> in
>>> it if you don't know it.
>>
>> Yep. I know where you guys are coming from when you say that you can 
> get
>> a job (_have_ gotten jobs) to do something that you haven't ever done
>> yet. That's actually quite common, and in some situations the 
> "Something
>> You Have Never Done Yet" happens to be a programming language.
>>
>> Sometimes (often) you get hired to produce a result, and it's implicit
>> in the deal that you'll get 'er done however you get 'er done, without
>> too much nitpicking about exactly what it is that you know and don't
>> know, at what levels of skill, at that exact moment of time. The
>> employer gets it that you're a competent, experienced developer, you've
>> done this before, and you can learn quickly. The employer also gets it
>> that you know *When You Cannot Do It*.
>>
>> Part of knowing "when you cannot do it" is, for example, if the job
>> requires C++, you don't have barely any C++, and the work needs to get
>> done in 2 months. A responsible developer will disclose that nobody but
>> nobody can come up to speed with C++ - not safely they can't - in 2
>> months, and also get a real job done.
>>
> I would certainly hope so! Mind you, it's a bit frightening that it would 
> even be necessary to tell an employer that. You'd hope they would know 
> that already! 
> 
> Some of the time, a skill you already have is "close enough" to the skill 
> they need that the learning curve is obviously going to be negligible. 
> For example, if they require that you are fluent in Excel and you've 
> never seen it but are a very proficient with Lotus 1-2-3, there shouldn't 
> be any problem. I have yet to see a spreadsheet program that wasn't 
> roughly 90% the same as every other spreadsheet I've ever used. 

That's actually the key point, for this comparison and for every other:
are you being hired for the 90% or for the 10%? I don't think I can
emphasize this enough. This is really where experience comes into the
picture, when it comes to being able to tease out what the employer
really needs.

Sometimes that 10% is the 10% because it's the inevitable different bits
of a different implementation. If you're talking Java EE, for example,
the 90% might be general Java EE APIs, and the 10% is differences
between various app servers. If you're hiring a guy to be a general Java
EE app programmer, you're hiring him for the 90%: you're not going to
bust his chops because he grew up on Websphere and doesn't know from
Tomcat or WebLogic.

But if you're hiring a guy to deal with a project that involves
technologies that are tied to app server details, the potential employee
had best know that this is so. It's *our* (read professional software
developers) responsibility to know those details. It could well be that
that ostensibly "pure" Java EE project actually requires specific app
server knowledge, in which case the 10% now became important.

You also need to know enough to understand whether the learning curve
actually is negligible or not. To use a Java example, you can't go
around saying that JMS is just another API that you haven't picked up
yet, but because generally you are quite proficient at Java then JMS is
no big deal. In fact the proficient use of JMS is a big deal, it's not
trivial, and you need to understand your prospective employer's needs
well enough to (1) get that he really wants thorough proficiency with
JMS and (2) you either currently have it or you don't.

It boils down to knowing a bit about a lot. No successful developer,
IMO, knows a lot about a little.

> But I'd be inclined to be rather dubious if I was hiring for a Java 
> project and someone came along saying they'd never even looked at Java 
> but they were fluent in C++ and Smalltalk so they think they can do my 
> project. If the deadlines were still some time away and the project was 
> not too demanding, I might be persuaded that the applicant might still be 
> acceptable, especially if he knew my business. But I might still be 
> inclined to choose someone with more knowledge of Java and assume he 
> could learn the business side over someone with no Java and extensive 
> business knowledge. 
> 
Who wouldn't? All other things being equal (general experience, say) I'd
pick the guy who knew C++ template meta-programming over the guy who
knew C++ but only basic template use, for a template meta-programming
project.

Good example about the Java and C++ and Smalltalk. They just ain't the
same. I've used all three. There's just not enough in common to assume
that someone who's great at C++ is going to be good at Java, or someone
who is great at Java is going to cut it with Smalltalk. I'm thinking
more and more that developers don't pick up new languages readily
because they know a similar one, but rather because (1) they are good
developers and (2) they have trained themselves to learn new languages.
There are only a few exceptions to this, and that's at a relatively
superficial level of expertise and when the languages are quite similar
(C# and Java, say).

AHS

-- 
-- Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union.
Josef Stalin, November 1935

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Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-24 20:10 +0000
  Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-24 13:05 -0800
    Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 05:47 +0000
      Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-24 23:40 -0800
        Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 17:02 +0000
          Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 12:08 -0800
            Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 22:12 +0000
              Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 14:27 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 23:29 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 18:33 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 14:38 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:49 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:53 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 18:17 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 16:01 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 17:22 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 12:25 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 21:08 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:33 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 17:05 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 20:18 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 21:29 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-27 05:44 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:37 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-28 00:04 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-28 01:39 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 14:54 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-28 17:24 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 04:53 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:08 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 05:12 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 21:38 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 17:27 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 12:22 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 22:50 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 17:24 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:00 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-02-29 09:14 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-29 09:55 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 21:31 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-29 23:06 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 04:33 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-04 23:00 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-04 17:07 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 15:33 +0000
                JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-03-05 08:38 -0800
                Re: JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 17:40 +0000
                Re: JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-03-05 21:25 -0800
                Re: JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-06 17:23 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-05 23:45 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-03-06 06:03 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-06 21:05 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:11 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:09 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-26 23:43 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 05:20 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-26 21:32 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 17:36 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 13:18 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 14:05 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 14:33 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 14:53 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 15:16 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 17:57 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 22:59 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-28 05:50 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:03 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-27 13:17 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 22:55 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-27 05:58 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 18:14 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-28 00:12 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-28 02:04 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:22 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:11 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:14 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-28 23:09 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:25 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-01 00:22 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-01 01:44 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-29 23:24 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-01 21:19 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 01:52 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-03 01:39 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 15:38 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-05 22:50 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-05 23:46 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-03-06 08:14 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-06 21:23 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-08 20:10 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 01:49 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-01 22:38 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-03-02 06:05 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 14:25 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-03-02 18:10 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 14:12 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-02 08:57 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 15:57 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-05 23:48 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-07 20:33 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-03-07 13:09 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:20 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-02 14:28 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:16 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-26 10:10 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 20:52 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 13:48 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 13:47 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:40 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:36 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-26 16:04 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 19:38 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 17:09 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-26 20:08 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 19:43 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-27 22:03 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:18 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 13:43 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 01:11 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 21:49 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 18:37 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 12:28 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-28 00:55 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 17:37 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:57 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-02-28 03:21 -0600
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-28 09:19 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:12 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-28 05:59 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-28 17:27 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 16:07 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:26 -0500
              Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 18:22 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-25 20:22 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 22:20 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-26 00:04 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 00:21 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 00:33 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:43 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-26 11:18 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-26 11:04 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-26 10:22 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 21:04 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 14:01 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:46 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 09:50 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:38 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 20:49 +0000
      Re: Aspect questions? jlp <jlp@jlp.com> - 2012-02-25 09:47 +0100
        Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 17:03 +0000
          Re: Aspect questions? jlp <jlp@jlp.com> - 2012-02-25 20:02 +0100
      Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-25 10:20 -0400
        Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-25 08:18 -0800
          Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 12:04 -0500
        Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 17:17 +0000
          Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-25 18:40 -0400
          Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 18:18 -0500
      Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 09:21 -0500
      Re: Aspect questions? Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-02-25 14:35 -0800
  Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-24 14:30 -0800
    Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-24 19:47 -0500
      Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-24 20:52 -0800
        Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 09:31 -0500
        Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-25 11:05 -0400
          Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 12:20 -0800
  Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-24 19:00 -0500
  Re: Aspect questions? Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2012-02-25 00:22 +0000

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