Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #12532

Re: Aspect questions?

From	Novice <novice@example..com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.java.programmer
Subject	Re: Aspect questions?
Date	2012-02-29 15:57 +0000
Organization	Your Company
Message-ID	<XnsA0086F97F5801jpnasty@94.75.214.39> (permalink)
References	(13 earlier) <jif5gv$ih$1@news.albasani.net> <XnsA0068BC4D36F6jpnasty@94.75.214.39> <jigp0l$ejo$1@news.albasani.net> <XnsA006CACD7F358jpnasty@94.75.214.39> <jihb5e$4o6$1@news.albasani.net>

Show all headers | View raw

Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> wrote in news:jihb5e$4o6$1@news.albasani.net:

> Novice wrote:
>> But then assuming we're agreed that all of _my_ classes should NOT
>> write to the same log - let alone every class in the world! - what is
>> the proper scope of a log. I could be persuaded that each application
>> should write its own distinct log, although I'm not sure we'd have
>> the same definition of application in mind. A better scope for logs
>> would probably be all the applications that belong to system X, where
>> X might be the company's payroll system, consisting of many
>> applications and hundreds of classes. What is your view of what the
>> scope should be? 
> 
> You do ask very good questions.
> 
> Each program should have its own log. I don't know what you mean when
> you say "project", but conventionally a project is tied to one
> specific program or application.
> 
>>>>>> Lots of loggers but only one log.... Yes, I need to get my head
>>>>>> around that and think of how that works. Maybe rereading that
>>>>>> logging overview will make that sink in....
>>>>>
>>>>> Or thinking about many arrows hitting one target.
>>>>>
>>>> That works too.
>>>
>>> Are there not many targets at the archery range?
>>>
>> I'm not an archer but I seem to remember seeing archery ranges on TV
>> shows that had several targets....
> 
> And as there is a different target for each archer, there should be a 
> different log for each program.
> 
> Really, I've already given you the advice you need to answer your own 
> question. I told you to design logs to benefit people who need them to
> troubleshoot.
> 
> How will it help an operations engineer or reliability engineer to
> have to sift through dozens of applications' output to find what they
> need? It's bad enough to sift through one application's log,
> especially the way most programmers fail to think through their
> logging output. 
> 
I'm 100% in agreement with you. I would certainly lean toward fewer logs 
than more logs. I would embrace One Big Log long before I would choose to 
have a separate log for each class!

>>> Put it in the place in the classpath that matches the location
>>> specified in the 'getResource()', use a "-D" parameter to the "java"
>>> command as suggested upthread,
>>
>> I just spent half an hour looking for that post and I cannot find it.
>> I skimmed each and every post in the thread and did not find it. I
>> located a find command in my news reader, whose scope is limited to a
>> single post at a time, and used it in every post in the thread. Still
>> nothing. I went into Google groups and searched it there with the
>> browser's find command and still nothing. I know it was there because
>> I remember seeing it but I can't find it now. Can you possibly remind
>> me what I was supposed to do? 
> 
> I must have remembered this wrong. I coulda sworn someone suggested to
> use the "-D" option per
> <http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/technotes/guides/logging/overview
> .html> which in the section entitled "Configuration File"
> <http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/technotes/guides/logging/overview
> .html#a1.8> points you to "See the LogManager API Specification for
> details." 
> <http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/util/logging/LogManager.
> html> where it tells you
> 
As I said, I remember seeing something about a -D option too. But I tried 
REALLY hard to find it again and couldn't. I still don't know where that 
post went. So thanks for repeating the information.

> «In addition, the LogManager uses two optional system properties that
> allow more control over reading the initial configuration:
> 
> "java.util.logging.config.class"
> "java.util.logging.config.file"
> These two properties may be set via the Preferences API, or as command
> line property definitions to the "java" command, or as system property
> definitions passed to JNI_CreateJavaVM.»
> 
> I don't have these link chains memorized, dude. I'm literally reading
> the documentation on your behalf and reporting what I discover.
> 
> There's only so far you can get as a programmer asking others to read
> the documentation for you.
>
Sorry, I do get a bit lazy on occasion. Just say no if you sense that 
happening. But I really couldn't find those links and I spent at least a 
half hour looking.
 
>>> study the Javadocs for
>>> 'getResource[AsStream]()'.
>>>
>>
>> Do I actually need to open the logging.properties file and read it,
>> as if it were a routine text file, to find the desired log path? That
>> seems improbable....
> 
> I'm only suggesting you study those Javadocs to understand how the
> system searches for resources.
> 
>> For what it's worth, someone else told me to add it to the classpath
>> for the project so I went into Run Configurations, chose the
>> Classpath tab and added the folder containing logging.properties
>> under "User Entries". I also 
> 
> Umm - cargo cult.
>
In retrospect, yes, you're right. If I had found those links again or 
tried a different google search, I might have found that pesky -
Djava.util.logging.config.file parameter and realized it was the 
linchpin. But I was going crazy trying to find that darned log file so 
that I could actually TRY some of the things people have been suggesting.
 
>> deleted my old java%u.log files because I'm sick of looking at them
>> and finding that no new java.log has joined them and none of the old
>> ones has changed. I ran the sandbox program again and the println()
>> displayed the path to the logging.properties file. The INFO, SEVERE,
>> and WARNING messages got displayed on the console, just as they did
>> before I made the logging.properties visible. But there is STILL NO
>> LOG FILE in the %h directory!
>>
>> This is really getting annoying. I really want to play with logging
>> now that I have a better grasp on it and I can't find the bloody
>> thing for love or money....
> 
> Didn't someone already ask you to share your logging.properties file
> with us? Have you done so?
>
Yes, I did. But this thread is so unwieldy now that it's hard to find 
things again. I'm having to click on a great many of the posts in the 
thread just to find things. I'm in mid-conversation with several people 
at the same time but I can't find any way to bookmark individual posts in 
this newsreader....

> Regardless, you are asking questions now that the documentation
> answers. I have read the documentation for you and reported what I
> found, to a degree. 
> 
> So will your next post be another request to read the documentation
> for you? 
> 
No, that will not be necessary. You didn't hear from me yesterday and 
that's because I had a great day yesterday. I finally put that 
-Djava.util.logging.config.file parameter in my VM arguments and pointed 
it to my logging.properties file. I can finally see the bleeping log that 
I'm writing!!!

And that let me get a great deal of useful work done. I reworked my Foo 
and Common projects so that no loggers or locales are passed between 
classes. In each class that needs to do logging - and no others, I do a 
Logger logger = Logger.getLogger(getClass().getName());

In classes where only one or two methods do logging, logger is a local 
variable. In classes where lots of methods do logging, I make it an 
instance variable and instantiate it in the constructor. 

I've become very fond of logging.properties because I figured out how to 
assign my desired custom formatter there rather than having to do it 
programmatically. I was very surprised to find that I was getting log 
records from various java.awt.*, java.swing.*, and sun.* classes but I 
keep all but the WARNING and SEVERE ones out of the log via the 
appropriate lines in the logging.properties file. 

In short, I am a lot closer to doing logging the way it is supposed to be 
done rather than the messed-up way I was doing it before. I still need to 
work with it a bit to fine-tune my approach to what should be logged and 
what the exact level and content of each log record should be but that is 
going to be an ongoing thing. 

I even understand that advice in the article which Arved recommended 
where the author said not to put the class name in the log record. Now 
that I've got the actual class name as the Logger value in the record, I 
can see that I don't need it again elsewhere in the same log record. 

I know that some people do really well by just hearing principles and 
concepts; with that under their belts, they can do exactly what needs to 
be done with minimal hesitation. But I tend to need to see things 
actually working with my own two eyes for concepts and principles to gel 
properly. Before that, I'm not sure if I'm really envisioning things 
accurately. That's why I was getting so antsy about seeing that log. Now 
that I can see and try things and see real log records, things are 
starting to solidify for me. 

So thank you (everyone who contributed to this thread but especially Lew) 
VERY MUCH for your patience. 

I'll go try finishing up any dangling conversations within this thread 
now and then get on to my next issue ;-)

-- 
Novice

Back to comp.lang.java.programmer | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar

Thread

Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-24 20:10 +0000
  Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-24 13:05 -0800
    Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 05:47 +0000
      Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-24 23:40 -0800
        Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 17:02 +0000
          Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 12:08 -0800
            Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 22:12 +0000
              Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 14:27 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 23:29 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 18:33 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 14:38 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:49 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:53 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 18:17 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 16:01 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 17:22 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 12:25 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 21:08 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:33 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 17:05 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 20:18 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 21:29 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-27 05:44 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:37 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-28 00:04 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-28 01:39 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 14:54 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-28 17:24 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 04:53 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:08 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 05:12 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 21:38 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 17:27 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 12:22 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 22:50 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 17:24 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:00 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-02-29 09:14 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-29 09:55 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 21:31 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-29 23:06 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 04:33 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-04 23:00 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-04 17:07 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 15:33 +0000
                JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-03-05 08:38 -0800
                Re: JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 17:40 +0000
                Re: JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-03-05 21:25 -0800
                Re: JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-06 17:23 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-05 23:45 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-03-06 06:03 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-06 21:05 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:11 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:09 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-26 23:43 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 05:20 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-26 21:32 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 17:36 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 13:18 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 14:05 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 14:33 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 14:53 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 15:16 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 17:57 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 22:59 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-28 05:50 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:03 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-27 13:17 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 22:55 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-27 05:58 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 18:14 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-28 00:12 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-28 02:04 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:22 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:11 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:14 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-28 23:09 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:25 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-01 00:22 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-01 01:44 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-29 23:24 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-01 21:19 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 01:52 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-03 01:39 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 15:38 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-05 22:50 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-05 23:46 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-03-06 08:14 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-06 21:23 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-08 20:10 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 01:49 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-01 22:38 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-03-02 06:05 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 14:25 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-03-02 18:10 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 14:12 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-02 08:57 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 15:57 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-05 23:48 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-07 20:33 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-03-07 13:09 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:20 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-02 14:28 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:16 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-26 10:10 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 20:52 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 13:48 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 13:47 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:40 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:36 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-26 16:04 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 19:38 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 17:09 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-26 20:08 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 19:43 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-27 22:03 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:18 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 13:43 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 01:11 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 21:49 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 18:37 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 12:28 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-28 00:55 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 17:37 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:57 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-02-28 03:21 -0600
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-28 09:19 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:12 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-28 05:59 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-28 17:27 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 16:07 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:26 -0500
              Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 18:22 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-25 20:22 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 22:20 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-26 00:04 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 00:21 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 00:33 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:43 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-26 11:18 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-26 11:04 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-26 10:22 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 21:04 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 14:01 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:46 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 09:50 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:38 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 20:49 +0000
      Re: Aspect questions? jlp <jlp@jlp.com> - 2012-02-25 09:47 +0100
        Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 17:03 +0000
          Re: Aspect questions? jlp <jlp@jlp.com> - 2012-02-25 20:02 +0100
      Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-25 10:20 -0400
        Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-25 08:18 -0800
          Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 12:04 -0500
        Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 17:17 +0000
          Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-25 18:40 -0400
          Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 18:18 -0500
      Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 09:21 -0500
      Re: Aspect questions? Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-02-25 14:35 -0800
  Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-24 14:30 -0800
    Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-24 19:47 -0500
      Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-24 20:52 -0800
        Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 09:31 -0500
        Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-25 11:05 -0400
          Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 12:20 -0800
  Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-24 19:00 -0500
  Re: Aspect questions? Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2012-02-25 00:22 +0000

csiph-web