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Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #12322
| From | Novice <novice@example..com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.java.programmer |
| Subject | Re: Aspect questions? |
| Date | 2012-02-25 17:02 +0000 |
| Organization | Your Company |
| Message-ID | <XnsA0047B96E59BFjpnasty@94.75.214.39> (permalink) |
| References | <XnsA0039B9FFFA32jpnasty@94.75.214.39> <ji8u23$f6m$1@news.albasani.net> <XnsA00493ECED98jpnasty@94.75.214.39> <jia398$bho$1@news.albasani.net> |
Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> wrote in news:jia398$bho$1@news.albasani.net:
> On 02/24/2012 09:47 PM, Novice wrote:
>> Lew<noone@lewscanon.com> wrote in
>> news:ji8u23$f6m$1@news.albasani.net:
>>
>>> Novice wrote:
>>>> Is this a reasonable place to ask questions about AspectJ?
>>>
>>> Isn't that one right there?
>>>
>>> Does it seem reasonable to you?
>>>
>>>> I'm just getting started with it and it's not going really well so
>>>> far. I'm imitating simple examples from the manual and they just
>>>> don't work. I'm not sure what I'm messing up....
>>>>
>>>> I don't recall ever seeing anyone ask aspect-oriented questions but
>>>> I certainly don't read every thread or even every subject line so I
>>>> could have missed some....
>>>
>>> Since this is a newsgroup devoted to the Java programmer and AspectJ
>>> is a Java programming tool, yes, of course this is the right forum.
>>>
>>> Aspect programming is an advanced, hairy and special-purpose
>>> discipline. Are you just learning it for the sake of learning it, or
>>> are you contemplating a project use for it?
>>>
>> Hey, I'm just making sure this is an appropriate place to ask before
>> I take the time to lay out my problem. This seems like a reasonable
>> place to ask but the rest of the group may not agree....
>>
>>
>>> "Doctor, I have a problem," is a very limited request. We aren't
>>> sure what you're messing up either.
>>>
>> Obviously. I haven't asked a specific question yet. I wanted to be
>> sure there was no major objection before laying out the issue.
>>
>>> There are some areas of Java programming that are almost never
>>> needed at the application level, but are quite useful for framework
>>> development. They include advance JavaBeans stuff like BeanInfo
>>> properties descriptors, reflection beyond 'instanceof' and
>>> 'Class.newInstance()', class loader magic and aspect programming.
>>>
>>> Given your handle in this group, you might want to learn other
>>> things in Java first before tacking aspect programming.
>>>
>> There are dozens of things I'd like to learn about Java and I
>> probably need to learn several of them first.
>>
>>> What is your use case for aspect programming?
>>>
>> Based on other answers to my question, maybe I _don't_ want to learn
>> AspectJ!
>
> I wouldn't advise against learning it.
>
> I do advise laying a good foundation. Certain advanced topics are
> foundational, and you don't need to be linear and do nothing
> interesting.
>
> For example, every Java programmer should understand serialization and
> have a basic grasp of non-trivial reflection. More importantly,
> understand where the various topics apply so you don't deploy them
> where they don't serve well.
>
One of these days, I'm going to have to get a comprehensive list of the
things I should know and then take a systematic approach to learning all
of them. But I don't think that's going to be today. Right now, I want to
focus on my logging and l10n....
>> I saw a seminar about aspects a couple of years back and thought it
>> sounded quite intriguing. It struck me that aspects might be a very
>> good
>
> They are and would be.
>
>> way to handle what I am currently trying to do. But maybe there are
>> better ways. So let me lay out what I'm trying to accomplish and
>> maybe you can suggest a better approach.
>
> Very wise and balanced approach, that.
>
Thank you.
>> I'd like to make both localization and logging a part of every class
>> that I write. The localization would allow each class to display text
>> in any (supported) language that the user requests and I'm also
>> thinking of localizing the messages in exceptions that get displayed
>> or written to logs. It seems like logging is the standard way to go
>> for writing and/or displaying messages to the user and to logs.
>
> The widespread practice for l10n (because you omit ten characters from
> "localization") are
>
> <http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/util/ResourceBundle.html
> > <http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/util/Properties.html>
>
I've already got that covered. I've been writing and using resource
bundles for some time. I'm just not sure I'm using them the best possible
way.
>> [snip]
>> By the way, I found another place to ask AspectJ questions and the
>> issues I had when I first posted here are now resolved. But the
>> bigger issue remains: are aspects a good approach for what I want to
>> do? If not, what would be a better strategy?
>
> You ask great questions.
>
> I18n ("i[nternationalizatio]n") and l10n are most likely best handled
> with resource bundles and properties. There is a lot of lore around
> that approach, and it's just as flexible as aspects.
>
As mentioned above, I already take advantage of resource bundles in
several projects, including the one that concerns me today.
> Logging is a great use case for aspects. However, there are
> alternatives to lessening logging's overhead, too. You have to weigh
> costs and benefits.
>
What are other good ways to do logging?
Right now, the two main programs in my current project each create their
own logger and then pass it to the classes they call in their parameters.
The called classes write their messages to that logger. I've created a
method that does the logger creation and put it in a utility class in my
Common project so that my programs only need to execute that method
(passing in a few parameters of course) and get an appropriate logger
back. Each of the classes instantiated by the main programs gets a logger
passed among their parameters. The newly instantiated class then verifies
that the logger is not null and throws an IllegalArgumentException if it
is. Each class writes to the log when it seems appropriate. Sometimes,
that is to log an Exception. Other times, I log things that are more
diagnostic in nature. If a method isn't 100% right yet, I will log
calculations that it is doing, such as calculating the width of a column
in a JTable or whatever.
This works okay but it seems to me that it might be more elegant to put
the logging in aspects, especially the diagnostic stuff that I am using
to verify that the suspect methods are doing their jobs correctly.
I'm not sure yet if all the logging code, including the creation of the
log itself, should go into aspects though. It probably makes more sense
to create the logger the way I am doing it and continue to do the actual
writes to the logs in my existing classes when it involves Exception
handling. The diagnostic logging, though, seems like a prime candidate
for the aspects. I could write pointcuts that specify the methods that
are a little dubious and log them in as much detail as I need. Methods
that are already working to my satisfaction could be left alone with only
their Exception logging.
But if there is a better way to do things, I'm all ears.
I'm a one-man shop and if there are other Java programmers in this area,
I haven't found them yet. That makes newsgroups and forums my primary way
of finding out how the pros do things.
> It's not just in the code you weigh. Frameworks have a deployment
> cost. It's harder to deploy than to write code. Framework bloat is a
> major problem in the real world. Aspects also reduce visibility into
> areas, sometimes a good thing and others not.
>
What do you mean when you say "framework"? That term puts me in mind of
things like Spring - which I know of but have never used - but I'm not
using any formal frameworks like that and know very little about them.
I'm getting the impression that you are thinking of my work as being sort
of a homegrown framework. Maybe it is; I really don't know.
> Locale management is best done in plain sight, IMO. You still have
> single code points that translate automagically, so that's OK.
>
My code basically uses Locale.getDefault() to get the Locale implied by
the user.country and user.language JVM parameters (which can of course be
overridden within my projects JVM settings). I write ResourceBundles for
English and two other languages using Google Translate to the
translations. Not professional grade translations by any means but
sufficient for my purposes.
> Aspects are to hide things from the code. Great, if you don't mind
> hunting for them when you need them. XML configuration files can
> suffer this problem, too. Too much externalization is bad just like
> too little.
>
It shouldn't be very hard to find the aspects provided I name them well
and put them in the same package as the code it is monitoring. Aspects
that monitor every class I have are a bit more challenging but I'd put
them in my Common project in an appropriate package, assuming that's
possible. I haven't gotten far enough into the manual to find out how to
do an aspect that covers a lot of projects and classes but I'm assuming
it's possible given what I've already seen.
> I use code templates to handle logging. My editor autoinserts logging
> stuff into new source files. That's enough for my laziness. Besides,
> the logging statements help document the code, done right.
>
So you use the code templates feature in Eclipse (or something equivalent
in a different IDE)?
I can't say I've done much with those. I mostly just copy and paste from
whatever project I most recently did that has the relevant code. And
every time I do that, I think seriously about making that code fragment a
method in a utility class. I even do it more often than not ;-)
> So where /should/ you use aspects? Hmm.
>
> Like I say, you ask great questions.
>
Thanks!
--
Novice
Back to comp.lang.java.programmer | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar
Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-24 20:10 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-24 13:05 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 05:47 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-24 23:40 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 17:02 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 12:08 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 22:12 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 14:27 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 23:29 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 18:33 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 14:38 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:49 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:53 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 18:17 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 16:01 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 17:22 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 12:25 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 21:08 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:33 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 17:05 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 20:18 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 21:29 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-27 05:44 -0400
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:37 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-28 00:04 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-28 01:39 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 14:54 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-28 17:24 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 04:53 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:08 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 05:12 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 21:38 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 17:27 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 12:22 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 22:50 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 17:24 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:00 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-02-29 09:14 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-29 09:55 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 21:31 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-29 23:06 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 04:33 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-04 23:00 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-04 17:07 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 15:33 +0000
JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-03-05 08:38 -0800
Re: JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 17:40 +0000
Re: JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-03-05 21:25 -0800
Re: JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-06 17:23 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-05 23:45 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-03-06 06:03 -0400
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-06 21:05 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:11 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:09 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-26 23:43 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 05:20 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-26 21:32 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 17:36 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 13:18 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 14:05 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 14:33 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 14:53 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 15:16 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 17:57 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 22:59 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-28 05:50 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:03 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-27 13:17 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 22:55 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-27 05:58 -0400
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 18:14 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-28 00:12 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-28 02:04 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:22 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:11 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:14 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-28 23:09 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:25 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-01 00:22 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-01 01:44 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-29 23:24 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-01 21:19 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 01:52 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-03 01:39 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 15:38 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-05 22:50 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-05 23:46 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-03-06 08:14 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-06 21:23 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-08 20:10 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 01:49 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-01 22:38 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-03-02 06:05 -0400
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 14:25 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-03-02 18:10 -0400
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 14:12 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-02 08:57 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 15:57 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-05 23:48 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-07 20:33 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-03-07 13:09 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:20 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-02 14:28 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:16 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-26 10:10 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 20:52 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 13:48 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 13:47 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:40 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:36 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-26 16:04 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 19:38 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 17:09 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-26 20:08 -0400
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 19:43 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-27 22:03 -0400
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:18 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 13:43 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 01:11 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 21:49 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 18:37 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 12:28 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-28 00:55 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 17:37 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:57 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-02-28 03:21 -0600
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-28 09:19 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:12 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-28 05:59 -0400
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-28 17:27 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 16:07 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:26 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 18:22 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-25 20:22 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 22:20 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-26 00:04 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 00:21 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 00:33 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:43 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-26 11:18 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-26 11:04 -0400
Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-26 10:22 -0400
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 21:04 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 14:01 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:46 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 09:50 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:38 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 20:49 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? jlp <jlp@jlp.com> - 2012-02-25 09:47 +0100
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 17:03 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? jlp <jlp@jlp.com> - 2012-02-25 20:02 +0100
Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-25 10:20 -0400
Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-25 08:18 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 12:04 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 17:17 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-25 18:40 -0400
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 18:18 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 09:21 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-02-25 14:35 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-24 14:30 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-24 19:47 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-24 20:52 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 09:31 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-25 11:05 -0400
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 12:20 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-24 19:00 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2012-02-25 00:22 +0000
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