Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #12586

Re: Aspect questions?

From	Lew <noone@lewscanon.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.java.programmer
Subject	Re: Aspect questions?
Date	2012-03-02 08:57 -0800
Organization	albasani.net
Message-ID	<jiqu61$dj8$1@news.albasani.net> (permalink)
References	(20 earlier) <XnsA008D31F58A4Cjpnasty@94.75.214.39> <jin86o$a91$1@news.albasani.net> <XnsA009D4C26E08Bjpnasty@94.75.214.39> <jipptl$6ar$1@news.albasani.net> <XnsA00A5EA6A2E0Djpnasty@94.75.214.39>

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Novice wrote:
> Lew wrote:
>> Novice wrote:
>>> How did you sell employers on that? I really want to know.
>>>
>> I think it's a matter of having the skill and baldly claiming it, but
>> to tell the truth I don't really know how I pull it off. I think
>> people feel the confidence and don't question it too closely. I know
>> my capabilities and people seem to believe me.
>>
>>> I'm picturing a shop whose main language is, say, C++ (which you
>>> haven't mentioned so I assume you don't know it.) The ad calls for
>>> serious C++
...
>>
> I didn't mean to overlook any skills or make any unflattering
> assumptions, Lew. I just used C++ because I wanted my example to be of
> something quite substantive that you couldn't learn well in a few days
> (or at least that most people couldn't learn well in a few days - you
> seemed to have learned Java in a remarkably short time!) I simply chose

I learned Java in a week because I'd spent time reading about it for a year first.

But I didn't consider that I had learned it because I hadn't used it, couldn't 
figure out how packages related to directories, and had some other troubles.

I learned the language itself enough to program with it in about a week in 
early 1999. That employer knew of my weakness in the language. I told him I 
needed a week and he gave me a chance to prove it.

I wasn't adept in Java until at least 2000, not really until 2001. During that 
time I went to Java Users' Group (JUG) meetings, heck, a friend of mine and I 
ran a JUG for almost two years, training Java programmers. (I got trained 
there, too.) I read constantly, then and now, various Java articles and still 
go back and re-read the tutorials from time to time. Then and now, I wrote 
sample applications, sometimes relatively complex, to learn new techniques 
like JPA and JSF.

Often I'd learn something like JPA using Apache OpenJPA, then shortly 
thereafter get a job where they used Hibernate, but pre-JPA. So I didn't have 
the specific buzzword ("Hibernate", and not JPA at that). But I had 
substantial experience in ORMs (Object-Relational Mapping frameworks), SQL, 
and JDBC, with study knowledge of JPA. It was enough; in fact it made me 
better at Hibernate than the rest of my team combined, and they had experience 
with it.

Beware of claims like "I learned Java in a week". It's taking me a lot of 
years to become an overnight success.

> C++ because it is complex and you hadn't mentioned it as being one of
> your skills. It doesn't remotely surprise me that you know it and
> possibly very well. It seems quite likely that you learned Java so
> quickly because you had previous exposure to C++ or something like it.
> That would give you exposure to much of the syntax and all of the OO
> concepts and give you a massive head start with Java.
>
>>> skills. You send a resume which doesn't claims no knowledge of C++ at
>>> all. How do you even get an interview let alone persuade them that
>>> you can be productive in that language in short order?
>>
>> I don't recommend trying to learn C++ quickly, nor claiming expertise
>> in it if you don't know it.
>>
> Absolutely! I was astounded that you had learned Java that quickly but as
> I just said above, that probably happened because you had a similar
> language, very likely C++, so that you didn't have all that much to learn
> when you got to Java.

You know, "learned" is such an imprecise term.

>>>>> impression is that employers all expect you to have a long list of
>>>>> qualifications and certifications in _exactly_ what they want. And
>>>>> they don't seem to want to have to spend any money training anyone
>>>>> for anything.
>>>>
>>>> That's why my resume shows qualifications in every skill.
>>>>
>>> When you say that it shows qualifications, do you mean that it simply
>>> lists technologies that you have used or do you have specific
>>> industry- recognized certifications in each of the technologies? For
>>> instance, one person might list programming skills like so:
>>
>> No, I mean that as a joke. No one has every skill.
>>
> Of course not. Sorry, I misunderstood your intent. I thought you were
> talking about how you described the skills you do have.

I describe them with five pages of small-print, densely-formatted resume 
comprising very brief synopses that mostly just list the technologies from 
each project with a curt overview of what I did with them.

>>> Languages Known: COBOL, Fortran, LISP, C++

I learned COBOL in college, swearing then not to become known as a programmer 
in it. It's actually not a bad language, I now think. I programmed 
professionally in FORTRAN (and Fortran) for several years after I graduated, 
before teaching myself C. (On the job, with my manager's blessing. But then, I 
was already an employee there.) I learned C++ on my own well enough to 
convince someone to hire me for it, then got better at it on the job.

I've studied LISP but never used it. I don't claim to know the language.

I used Python on my most recent project. I was successful at programming with 
it, but I have yet to learn it. Nevertheless, it's listed as a skill, since I 
can program with it, after all.

>>> Another might say:
>>>
>>> Languages: Java (Advanced Programmer Certification), C (Intermediate
>>> Programmer Certification), etc. etc.
>>
>> I don't have any certifications.
>>
> I'm even more impressed. So many ads seem to want to see certifications.
> You've managed to get jobs without having the main shop language or any
> certifications! I wouldn't even apply to jobs like that on the assumption
> that my resume would be immediately disqualified....
>
> I would LOVE to find out how you manage to get considered despite what
> seem like insurmountable obstacles to me....

I sell the strengths I do have, acknowledge the weaknesses openly but not 
obsequiously, and lay out a specific strategy and rationale why those 
weaknesses don't matter much but the strengths do.

And I totally believe in myself.

Also, I spent a year living on straight commission once.

-- 
Lew
Honi soit qui mal y pense.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Friz.jpg

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Thread

Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-24 20:10 +0000
  Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-24 13:05 -0800
    Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 05:47 +0000
      Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-24 23:40 -0800
        Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 17:02 +0000
          Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 12:08 -0800
            Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 22:12 +0000
              Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 14:27 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 23:29 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 18:33 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 14:38 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:49 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:53 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 18:17 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 16:01 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 17:22 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 12:25 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 21:08 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:33 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 17:05 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 20:18 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 21:29 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-27 05:44 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:37 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-28 00:04 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-28 01:39 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 14:54 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-28 17:24 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 04:53 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:08 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 05:12 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 21:38 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 17:27 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 12:22 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 22:50 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 17:24 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:00 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-02-29 09:14 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-29 09:55 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 21:31 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-29 23:06 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 04:33 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-04 23:00 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-04 17:07 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 15:33 +0000
                JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-03-05 08:38 -0800
                Re: JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 17:40 +0000
                Re: JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-03-05 21:25 -0800
                Re: JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-06 17:23 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-05 23:45 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-03-06 06:03 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-06 21:05 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:11 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:09 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-26 23:43 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 05:20 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-26 21:32 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 17:36 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 13:18 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 14:05 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 14:33 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 14:53 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 15:16 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 17:57 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 22:59 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-28 05:50 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:03 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-27 13:17 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 22:55 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-27 05:58 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 18:14 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-28 00:12 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-28 02:04 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:22 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:11 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:14 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-28 23:09 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:25 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-01 00:22 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-01 01:44 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-29 23:24 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-01 21:19 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 01:52 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-03 01:39 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 15:38 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-05 22:50 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-05 23:46 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-03-06 08:14 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-06 21:23 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-08 20:10 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 01:49 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-01 22:38 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-03-02 06:05 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 14:25 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-03-02 18:10 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 14:12 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-02 08:57 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 15:57 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-05 23:48 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-07 20:33 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-03-07 13:09 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:20 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-02 14:28 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:16 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-26 10:10 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 20:52 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 13:48 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 13:47 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:40 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:36 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-26 16:04 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 19:38 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 17:09 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-26 20:08 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 19:43 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-27 22:03 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:18 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 13:43 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 01:11 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 21:49 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 18:37 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 12:28 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-28 00:55 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 17:37 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:57 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-02-28 03:21 -0600
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-28 09:19 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:12 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-28 05:59 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-28 17:27 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 16:07 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:26 -0500
              Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 18:22 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-25 20:22 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 22:20 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-26 00:04 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 00:21 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 00:33 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:43 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-26 11:18 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-26 11:04 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-26 10:22 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 21:04 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 14:01 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:46 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 09:50 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:38 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 20:49 +0000
      Re: Aspect questions? jlp <jlp@jlp.com> - 2012-02-25 09:47 +0100
        Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 17:03 +0000
          Re: Aspect questions? jlp <jlp@jlp.com> - 2012-02-25 20:02 +0100
      Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-25 10:20 -0400
        Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-25 08:18 -0800
          Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 12:04 -0500
        Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 17:17 +0000
          Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-25 18:40 -0400
          Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 18:18 -0500
      Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 09:21 -0500
      Re: Aspect questions? Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-02-25 14:35 -0800
  Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-24 14:30 -0800
    Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-24 19:47 -0500
      Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-24 20:52 -0800
        Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 09:31 -0500
        Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-25 11:05 -0400
          Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 12:20 -0800
  Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-24 19:00 -0500
  Re: Aspect questions? Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2012-02-25 00:22 +0000

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