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Re: Aspect questions?

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Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> wrote in news:jie92m$9nd$1@news.albasani.net:

> On 02/26/2012 09:22 AM, Novice wrote:
>> Lew wrote:
>>
>>> Novice wrote:
>>>> Lew wrote:
>>>>> You don't create multiple log files, one per class. Where did you
>>>>> get that notion?
>>>>>
>>>> Huh? You seem to be contradicting yourself. Are you saying I should
>>>> create one logging file per class or not? And why have a separate
>>>> logging
>>>
>>> No. I never said nor implied that you should have one logging file
>>> per class. That one's on you, brother.
>>>
>> Okay. Your phrasing was a bit confusing. I read it as "You don't
>> create multiple files, (you create) one per class." Apparently that's
>> not what you mean after all. Sorry.
> 
> The sentence began with "You don't...". I fail to see what can be
> confusing there.  An appositive phrase doesn't invert the sense of the
> predicate. 
> 
> Which leaves the question of how we got the miscommunication in the
> first place, when I never suggested such a thing.
> 
Okay, let's not flog this to death. I just want to figure this out, not 
get into a detailed post mortem about what you meant and what I thought 
you meant and all of that.

I've apparently jumped to some (several?) wrong conclusions. I admit 
that. I'm trying to listen and work with what you're telling me but I'm 
not quite getting things yet.


>>>> file for each class? Isn't it more logical to have all the messages
>>>> that come from one program, say Foo, appear in the same log? Isn't
>>>> the poor
>>>
>>> Yes, but why are you arguing a point not in dispute?
>>>
>> Because your phrasing seemed to imply that I DID want one log per
>> class. 
>>
>>>> Sysop going to be excessively busy if he has to check a separate
>>>> log for each and every one of the - hundreds? thousands? - of
>>>> classes in the system? Wouldn't it be more logical to group logs on
>>>> the basis of which application is invoking the class? Therefore, if
>>>> method getCurrentWeekdayName had problems while executing program
>>>> Foo, the Foo log would contain the information? Wouldn't the person
>>>> running Foo be the one that's notifying the SysOp that something
>>>> screwy just happened while running Foo? Then the name of the
>>>> application would be a huge head start in finding the problem: just
>>>> look in the Foo log and all will be revealed. Or at least enough to
>>>> get started. 
>>>
>>> How you do go on.
>>>
>>> No one is suggesting anything like that scenario. so cool your jets,
>>> Cadet!
>>>
>>> Wow.
>>>
>> Sorry. I was confused by what you seemed to imply.
> 
> "Seemed" foists the responsibility off. I didn't do the "seeming".
> 
Okay, it was all me then. Everything you've said has been crystal clear 
and no reasonable human being could possibly misunderstand what you were 
saying or implying. 

> ...
> 
>> As for the term "configuration file" I didn't realize you meant
>> "logging.properties". That was my confusion there; I don't recall
>> hearing that called a configuration file before and thought you were
>> talking about something completely new and outside my experience.
> 
> I used the term in the exact same sense as the logging library
> documentation and in computer programming generally.
>
Again, I've got some gaps in my education. Those are my fault, not yours. 
I'm just trying to understand what you say. When I get confused, I echo 
back to see if I've got things right. So far, I'm not doing too well.
 
>>>> If this is some routine thing that professional developers do,
>>>> great. I obviously need to know about it. Can you point me to a
>>>> tutorial or whatever that will explain what they are and how to
>>>> create them? 
>>>
>>> GIYF, dude.
>>>
>> GIYF??
> 
> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=GIYF
> ...
> 
Fair enough. 

>> I expect that they are assuming that each project has a unique
>> package name. Therefore, if my company is novice.com, then the Foo
>> project will 
> 
> Huh?
> 
> Have you read the Java tutorial?
> <http://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/java/package/index.html>
> 
I have now. It doesn't help much though; I knew all of that stuff before. 
Figuring out how to apply it to my situation is where I seem to be having 
trouble. 

>> presumably have a package named com.novice.foo and the Bar project
>> will 
> 
> Don't presume; design.  It is very possible that the "Foo" project
> will not have a package 'com.novice.foo', if it has
> 'com.novice.foo.qux', 'com.novice.foo.bleh' and so on.
> 
Sure. Foo actually contains two programs, the main one which uses a file 
to drive an application and a support program which simplifies the 
editing of the file that drives the main program. Those could possibly be 
in different packages within the same project, com.novice.foo.bart and 
com.novice.foo.homer. But to my way of thinking, they are such close 
cousins that they may just as well be in the same package.

>> have a package named com.novice.bar. Then, the logging for the Foo
>> project will be based on Logger.getLogger("com.novice.foo"), right?
>> Then every class within the Foo project will have the line:
>>
>> Logger logger = Logger.getLogger("com.novice.foo");
> 
> No, it won't. First, you have completely ignored that I said "one
> logger per class".  How did you distort that into "one logger per
> package"? Second, you don't design packages for the logger, you design
> loggers for the packages. 
>
Sorry, you're right. I muddled the two together.
 
>> Have I got this so far?
> 
> Not yet.
> 
>> If so, the next logical step would be to treat all the stuff in the
>> Common project similarly. If I put all of those classes in package
>> com.novice.common, then each class would have this:
> 
> STOP!
> 
> I don't know how you make these leaps, and I am defeated as to how to
> advise you not to. You go on for paragraphs about bad ideas that were
> never suggested to you.
> 
Sorry, one mistake just leads to the next. Let me rephrase.

Assuming that project Foo has a single package, com.novice.foo and three 
classes, hickory, dickory, and dock, class hickory's logger would be 
"com.novice.foo.hickory", class dickory's logger would be 
"com.novice.foo.dickory" and class dock's logger would be 
"com.novice.foo.dock".

Is that right now?


>> Logger logger = Logger.getLogger("com.novice.common");
>>
>> Or would it be better to get a reference to the logger within Foo and
>> pass that to the classes in the Common project so that they write to
>> the logger used by the instantiating class from Foo?
> 
> Once again, I repeat, and you may recall the Javadoc quotes I provided
> upthread on this matter, getting a logger with a particular name gets
> a reference to that same-named logger. Already. Without additional
> complication on your part. It's built in. You don't need to reinvent
> it. It already happens. All you have to do is give the same name. You
> will already have gotten the reference. You don't have to pass it
> anywhere. It's already there. Read the Javadocs. Again. And again. And
> again. And again. Don't read what isn't in there - read what it says.
> It says that if you give the 'getLogger()' the same name, it will
> return a reference to the same logger. 

Yes, of course, you're absolutely right. I forgot that.
> 
> Aside from that, I have no idea at all what you intend to say by, "so
> that they write to the logger used by the instantiating class from
> Foo". What precisely do you mean there?
> 
It doesn't really matter. In fact it's dumb; I still had the thought in 
my brain that the main program was going to pass its logger to each class 
that it instantiates it but it's not. Each class is going to be getting 
it's own logger with 

Logger logger Logger.getLogger(getClass().getName());

>> Now, as it turns out, I've actually got a bunch of packages in
>> project Common. I'm separating different kinds of common classes via
>> packages. I'm not sure now if that is a good idea or a bad one. I've
>> got separate 
> 
> READ THE TUTORIAL!
> 

>> packages with the Common project for utilities, for classes dealing
>> with preference handling, for classes that are just simple lookups
>> (including Enums), classes that create generic panels for GUIs, etc.
>> So maybe I need to ask first if it is a bad idea to separate my
>> common code into categories or if it is better to lump it all
>> together into a single package.
> 
> It is better to group types into packages.
>
Yes, every class is already in one or another named package and has been 
for a long time. I'm still struggling a bit over which classes belong in 
the SAME package and which should not.

My thinking is that classes in the Common PROJECT should also be in 
packages that are distinct from the packages used for Projects Foo or 
Bar, which will have names like "com.novice.foo" and "com.novice.bar".

I think I want "com.novice.common" for the classes in the Common project 
but I'm not sure if all classes in Common should be in the same package 
or if it is better to group similar classes within the Common project 
into distinct packages like "com.novice.common.lookups", 
"com.novice.common.utilities", etc. etc. I'm not seeing a huge benefit to 
separate packages although I'm using separate packages now so that 
similar things are together. (That just feels like the right thing to do 
but so far, most of my "feelings" have been wrong!)


>> If keeping the separate packages is a good idea, then I need a bit of
>> guidance on whether there should be a separate logger for each
>> package or whether I'm better to write all messages from all Common
>> classes to the same logger, e.g. com.novice.common despite their
>> different packages. 
> 
> Once again, as I stated upthread some time ago and others have
> reiterated, the common practice (but by no means the only one) is one
> logger per class. 
> 
Right. That is gradually sinking in, believe it or not! In fact, I'm just 
about ready to replace all of the existing nonsense that I've been doing 
with a 

Logger logger = Logger.getLogger(getClass().getName());

in all my classes.

> Loggers "inherit", so that gives some flexibility in how you do
> things. 
> 
>> Now, if Project Foo only uses code from one other project, Common, I
>> only have two logs to worry about, the one that has all the Foo stuff
>> and the one that has all the Common stuff. That's not too bad. Then
>> again, maybe 
> 
> What?  You should only have one log, unless they use different
> libraries to log. 
>
No. I'm strictly using java.util.logging for now. Arved's got me thinking 
about this new one, slf4j, but I'm not ready to go there yet.

So I want to end up with all of my classes in all of my Projects writing 
to a single log? 

Hmm. Yes, I suppose that makes sense. I need to review the whole 
"inherit" aspect of logging but I've been thinking of one logger equating 
to one log and that's not right, is it? See, the penny is dropping....

Lots of loggers but only one log.... Yes, I need to get my head around 
that and think of how that works. Maybe rereading that logging overview 
will make that sink in....
 
>> it would be better to use Logger.getLogger("com.novice") and write
>> every message from every class I write to the very same log,
>> regardless of project. What is the best practice here?
> 
> Huh? again.
> 
> What you name the logger is not connected to where it logs. Where it
> logs is determined by the configuration for that logger. Usually it'll
> write to the same log as its parent. The best practice here is to make
> sense in the first place. You ask a question about naming a logger,
> but cast it in turns of where it logs. Apples and oranges, dude.
> Naming a logger doesn't change where it logs. Read the logger
> documentation, please. All this information is in the documentation.
> 
Yes, that's starting to become clear now.

> The configuration determines where the log goes. No changes to logger
> names are needed, just change the configuration file and restart.
> 
> We're starting to make the same points over and over again. It's
> frustrating to provide you an answer and have you come back with the
> same question. Please assimilate the answers already given.
>
I'm sure it is frustrating for you and I'm sorry. But believe me, it is 
massively frustrating for me too!
 
> To summarize the repeated points here:
> 
> - Configuration files usually suffice to configure logging. You rarely
> need to programmatically configure logging, and should resist doing
> so. Otherwise you defeat the point of changing logging strategy
> without having to rebuild. 
> 
> - The logger name determines which logger instance you get. NOT, and I
> repeat, *NOT* where it logs.
> 
> - Conventionally, and usually most usefully, loggers are named for the
> class in which they are used. So the logger for
> 'com.lewscanon.example.Foo' would come via
> 'getLogger(com.lewscanon.example.Foo.class.getName())'. 
> 
> and emergingly,
> 
> - Packages are to organize your program irrespective of logging
> strategy. 
> 
> Some of this is material in the basic tutorial, particular the info
> about packages, and should be mastered first before, say, learning how
> to code a for-each loop.
> 
>> I feel like I'm starting to see what you have in mind but I hope you
>> stay with me for just a bit longer until we've hashed the last bits
>> out. I don't want to go off in the wrong direction again so I need
>> your confirmation that I'm starting to get it now.
> 
> Your commitment is duly noted and quite laudable.
> 
> But "starting" is still a long way from "hash ... the last bits out".
> So I hope your patience is up to the task. You lack certain Java
> fundamentals. 
> 

I think we're a lot closer to putting this to bed now than we were a few 
hours ago. In fact, I may be able to proceed on my own now.

The only thing that REALLY bugs me still is that I can't find the darned 
log records containing the weekdays that I mentioned elsewhere in the 
thread. They're NOT at %h/java%u.log nor at the other place suggested in 
the Tracing and Logging document. And THAT is really driving me crazy. I 
can't think of anywhere else to look based on anything I've seen in the 
references you and others have given me. I _think_ the logging.properties 
file is ensuring that a physical log file is being written but maybe it's 
messed up in some way to keep it from writing at all. Or from righting 
INFO level records. But I don't think that's it. 

If you have any insight into that, you'd really be helping me out. It's 
hard to absorb the information you are giving me when my mind keeps 
obsessing on where the darned log files are.

-- 
Novice

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Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-24 20:10 +0000
  Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-24 13:05 -0800
    Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 05:47 +0000
      Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-24 23:40 -0800
        Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 17:02 +0000
          Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 12:08 -0800
            Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 22:12 +0000
              Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 14:27 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 23:29 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 18:33 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 14:38 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:49 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:53 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 18:17 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 16:01 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 17:22 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 12:25 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 21:08 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:33 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 17:05 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 20:18 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 21:29 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-27 05:44 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:37 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-28 00:04 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-28 01:39 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 14:54 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-28 17:24 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 04:53 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:08 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 05:12 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 21:38 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 17:27 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 12:22 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 22:50 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 17:24 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:00 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-02-29 09:14 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-29 09:55 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 21:31 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-29 23:06 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 04:33 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-04 23:00 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-04 17:07 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 15:33 +0000
                JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-03-05 08:38 -0800
                Re: JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 17:40 +0000
                Re: JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-03-05 21:25 -0800
                Re: JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-06 17:23 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-05 23:45 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-03-06 06:03 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-06 21:05 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:11 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:09 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-26 23:43 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 05:20 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-26 21:32 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 17:36 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 13:18 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 14:05 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 14:33 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 14:53 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 15:16 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 17:57 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 22:59 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-28 05:50 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:03 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-27 13:17 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 22:55 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-27 05:58 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 18:14 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-28 00:12 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-28 02:04 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:22 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:11 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:14 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-28 23:09 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:25 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-01 00:22 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-01 01:44 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-29 23:24 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-01 21:19 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 01:52 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-03 01:39 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 15:38 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-05 22:50 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-05 23:46 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-03-06 08:14 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-06 21:23 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-08 20:10 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 01:49 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-01 22:38 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-03-02 06:05 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 14:25 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-03-02 18:10 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 14:12 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-02 08:57 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 15:57 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-05 23:48 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-07 20:33 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-03-07 13:09 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:20 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-02 14:28 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:16 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-26 10:10 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 20:52 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 13:48 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 13:47 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:40 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:36 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-26 16:04 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 19:38 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 17:09 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-26 20:08 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 19:43 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-27 22:03 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:18 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 13:43 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 01:11 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 21:49 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 18:37 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 12:28 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-28 00:55 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 17:37 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:57 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-02-28 03:21 -0600
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-28 09:19 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:12 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-28 05:59 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-28 17:27 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 16:07 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:26 -0500
              Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 18:22 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-25 20:22 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 22:20 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-26 00:04 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 00:21 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 00:33 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:43 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-26 11:18 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-26 11:04 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-26 10:22 -0400
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 21:04 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 14:01 -0800
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:46 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 09:50 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:38 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 20:49 +0000
      Re: Aspect questions? jlp <jlp@jlp.com> - 2012-02-25 09:47 +0100
        Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 17:03 +0000
          Re: Aspect questions? jlp <jlp@jlp.com> - 2012-02-25 20:02 +0100
      Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-25 10:20 -0400
        Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-25 08:18 -0800
          Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 12:04 -0500
        Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 17:17 +0000
          Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-25 18:40 -0400
          Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 18:18 -0500
      Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 09:21 -0500
      Re: Aspect questions? Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-02-25 14:35 -0800
  Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-24 14:30 -0800
    Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-24 19:47 -0500
      Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-24 20:52 -0800
        Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 09:31 -0500
        Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-25 11:05 -0400
          Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 12:20 -0800
  Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-24 19:00 -0500
  Re: Aspect questions? Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2012-02-25 00:22 +0000

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