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Re: Hairy generics question

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On 12-02-24 07:36 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote:
> On 2/24/12 2:07 PM, sclaflin@webucator.com wrote:
>> On Friday, February 24, 2012 3:03:56 PM UTC-5, Lew wrote:
>>> On 02/24/2012 11:12 AM, sclaflin wrote:
>>
>>> Perhaps the circularity is necessary, but I've worked with my fellows
>>> on a few
>>> hairy generics issues where circularity seemed necessary, and it
>>> never was.
>>> Each time it turned out that an acyclic type graph did the trick, and
>>> better
>>> than the initial circular approach.
>>>
>>> Of course since you can't share any of the relevant details we have
>>> no way of
>>> helping you see if there is an acyclic approach. Still, I cannot
>>> accept your
>>> simple declaration that there isn't. The odds are just too strongly
>>> against it.
>>
>> Lew,
>>
>> You could well be right.  I based my structure on a framework that had
>> Presenter<V>  and View, but then the view didn't know how to talk to
>> the presenter.  So, they add in ReverseView<P>  separately.  I was
>> trying to combine them both, and with those dual sorts of situations
>> I've always ended up with circularity.
>>
>> You guessed that I've got proprietary code that I can't share, and I'm
>> supposed to be spending time on that, not general-purpose things. 
>> But, if I can come up with a minimal but complete example, I'll post it.
> 
> In what way is a Presenter different from a "controller".  View's should
> never know about Controllers, only about models.  Controllers know about
> specific views and specific models.  Models know about generic
> listeners, if you need to have an active view (non web-app stuff).

For what it's worth, Daniel, JSF is arguably [1] MVP
(Model-View-Presenter) and not MVC (Model-View-Controller). There have
been many attempts to characterize JSF as MVC, and that's what most
folks think JSF is, but a body has to jump through some hoops in order
to define what the V and the C are in JSF in order to make that label
stick. MVP on the other hand is a much better description.

Struts is an MVC framework, JSF is MVP. Many folks (including Sun back
in the day) would have it that JSF is more of an MVC 2 framework using
front controllers, but IMHO it's really MVP. Using the duck test...

I myself don't lose much sleep over whether or not something is actually
classic MVC, new-model MVC, MVP or MVVM, or other named permutations
thereof. As Martin Fowler puts it, Separated Presentation is the the
notion we got from classic MVC, and all of the later variants give us
that. Provided that you're observing the proper separations and using
good OOP, why get religious? Not to knock MVVM, but just as an example
I've read through some threads about tiny little nuances of what is, and
isn't, MVVM, and I wonder why the posters don't go out there and get
some real work done instead of engaging in hairsplitting. :-)

I'm laying this stuff out there simply to indicate that despite all the
terminology, much of it redundant and confusing and artificial, that MVC
and MVP are usefully different and real architectures, and that
Presenter is definitely not Controller.

AHS

1. A number of people have argued this point. :-)
-- 
-- Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union.
Josef Stalin, November 1935

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Thread

Hairy generics question sclaflin <steve@steveclaflin.com> - 2012-02-21 06:30 -0800
  Re: Hairy generics question Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-21 09:24 -0800
  Re: Hairy generics question Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-02-21 11:05 -0800
    Re: Hairy generics question Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-21 12:09 -0800
  Re: Hairy generics question Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-02-21 18:04 -0800
    Re: Hairy generics question Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-21 18:31 -0800
    Re: Hairy generics question Steven Simpson <ss@domain.invalid> - 2012-02-22 08:31 +0000
  Re: Hairy generics question sclaflin@webucator.com - 2012-02-24 11:12 -0800
    Re: Hairy generics question Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-24 12:03 -0800
      Re: Hairy generics question sclaflin@webucator.com - 2012-02-24 14:07 -0800
        Re: Hairy generics question Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-02-24 15:36 -0800
          Re: Hairy generics question sclaflin@webucator.com - 2012-02-25 10:27 -0800
          Re: Hairy generics question Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-26 13:13 -0400
            What is Model View Presenter. (Was: Hairy generics question) Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-02-26 10:22 -0800
              Re: What is Model View Presenter. (Was: Hairy generics question) Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 13:08 -0800
                Re: What is Model View Presenter. (Was: Hairy generics question) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:17 -0500
                Re: What is Model View Presenter. (Was: Hairy generics question) sclaflin@webucator.com - 2012-02-28 06:22 -0800
            Re: Hairy generics question Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-02-28 09:46 -0800
              Re: Hairy generics question Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-02-28 09:49 -0800
              Re: Hairy generics question Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-28 12:45 -0800
              Re: Hairy generics question Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-29 19:37 -0400
                Re: Hairy generics question Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-29 22:32 -0800
                Re: Hairy generics question Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-09 21:33 -0500
                Re: Hairy generics question Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-10 07:38 -0800
                Re: Hairy generics question Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-03-10 12:45 -0400
                Re: Hairy generics question Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-10 12:03 -0500
                Re: Hairy generics question Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-10 09:47 -0800
                Re: Hairy generics question Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-10 13:26 -0500
                Re: Hairy generics question Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-03-11 14:06 -0300
              Re: Hairy generics question Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-09 21:43 -0500

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