Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues

Date	2026-04-26 15:08 +0200
Subject	Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
References	(6 earlier) <871pg66epy.fsf@nightsong.com> <nnd$21f50f64$66fb2850@8a22997dea94600d> <2026Apr25.072647@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <nnd$1196d1a5$0da70c85@6de98b5b6c1b0418> <2026Apr25.192111@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>
From	Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com>
Message-ID	<nnd$063066ad$1ec2c066@77cf6b60f966ffcc> (permalink)
Organization	KPN B.V.

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On 25-04-2026 19:21, Anton Ertl wrote:
> Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> writes:
>> On 25-04-2026 07:26, Anton Ertl wrote:
>>> Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> writes:
> [reinserted deleted, relevant context]
>>>> If you want to use a language that is "ideologically devoted" to the
>>>> architecture, maybe you shouldn't use Forth at all - and stick with C.
> 
>>> I don't see anything about C that is closer to the hardware than Forth
>>> is, and I think that both languages are about equally '"ideologically
>>> devoted" to the architecture'.  In particular, a C local variable is
>>> no closer to a register (the most efficient hardware feature for
>>> storing data) than a stack item or return stack item is, and register
>>> allocation of any of the three is similarly difficult (with big
>>> differences in difficulty between solutions that provide some register
>>> allocation to those that are so reliable that you usually count on
>>> them).
>>
>> Well, you're actually shooting at Paul Rubin - not at me. Thank you! I
>> take all the help I can get!
> 
> Actually, this whole paragraph is a reaction on your statement, not
> his.  You deleted it for whatever reason, so I reinserted it.
> Concerning Paul Rubin, just because he is wrong does not mean you are
> right.

I leave it here, because it doesn't hurt my point in any way whatsoever.

What you obviously fail to recognize is that I'm just using a debating 
technique. You see, I'm not too interested in hardware. To me it's just 
a bottle to get to the soda - i.e. you need hardware to run a program. 
I'm not completely ignorant on the subject, but I'm not an expert by any 
measure.

So what I do is *assume* the statement is true - and work out the 
consequences. In this case, if Forth is not the right language for an 
x86_64 architecture, why not turn to the most logical candidate (in this 
case, C, because it features local variables) instead of manhandling 
this alien concept into the Forth language?

Yes, it would also mean I'm using an "inferior language", but watch my 
face and see how much I care.

What you actually do is nullify his original statement, so there is no 
reason for either local variables or me changing my favorite language.

Effectively, it's turned into a Catch-22. Look it up, if you don't know 
what this means. So yes - I win in both cases. Take it or leave it. :-)

>>> (..) and they often find some arguments that appeal to
>>> elitism (i.e., only the chosen ones can use this programming language
>>> for the elite as it should be used, and the others should program in
>>> Python or "should never have been allowed to touch a keyboard" (Ulrich
>>> Drepper).
>>
>> It's your own pal Bernd that said: "A good programmer will write even
>> better code in Forth. A bad programmer will write abysmal code in Forth.
>> And I'm sorry to say - but most programmers are quite bad."
>>
>> So, either you agree with him or we have an unfortunate departure of one
>> of the most foremost members of Gforth. Because this states - in no
>> uncertain words - that Forth programmers *ARE* elite.
> 
> What departure?  We disagree on a number of things.

You must be great friends! :-)

> And the issue is not whether Forth programmers or any other
> programmers are elite, but that many programmers think that they are
> elite (whether they are or aren't) and that the designers or advocates
> of deficient programming systems make use of that to dupe them, along
> the lines of: "You as elite programmers can cope with this deficiency
> [of course they don't call it a definiency], it's only subpar
> programmers [more elaborate denigrations are common, see Ulrich
> Drepper] who complain about it."

"Deficient" can be considered a secondary quality in Lockes ideas on 
properties, which makes the entire discussion futile at best. BTW, the 
same goes for "elite or subpar programmers". In order to validate such a 
discussion one might need to agree on standards. Which we rarely do, is 
my experience ;-)

But I noticed you get triggered when dividing the world into "elite" and 
"subpar" programmers. Nietzsche called that (real or performed) humility 
"slave mentality". I see that a lot in governmental agencies. Everyone 
is afraid to stand up and put out their ideas - because you never know 
who is gonna punish you for challenging the boss.

I can tell you with utmost certainty it kills innovation - and drives 
your best people out of your organization. So I can't stand it. I truly 
believe challenging ideas - no matter how established - is the only way 
forward. The point is, the only true difference between ideas is, which 
achieve the desired result - and which don't.

The mindset classical Forth breeds has done wonders for me. And that 
experience simply cannot be denied.

> In the case of Forth and locals this tactic has not worked very well,
> so even Forth, Inc. (who have been the most vocal among the commercial
> Forth providers about their dislike of locals) have implemented
> locals.  But of course we see the echo of all of this still around
> here.

That is the most ridiculous argument I've ever seen appear from your 
hand. Really! Let me take myself as an example. I'm *NOT* a fan of 
locals, agree?

But I have and maintain *FOUR* different "locals" libraries and *THREE* 
preprocessor libraries. Darn, I even got libraries for PICK, ROLL and 
?DUP - which I usually refuse to touch without having a cross in my hands.

You know, I think this statement says more about you than about me or 
Forth inc. Yeah, sometimes I port a library with locals of deep stack 
operators.

And I think there are situations where one of my users might need those 
cursed words. So, I see no need to say: "You are not worthy of Forth. Go 
to hell, you sinner - and repent for your questionable choices!"

They chose how they use my product. They don't need me to do that for 
them. So I provide it, no problem.

But thank you for providing this insight. Although it is *completely* 
contrary to your last argument, it explains a lot.

Hans Bezemer

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Thread

Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-05 23:25 +0100
  Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-05 23:30 +0100
    Re: Coroutines in Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-05 17:16 -0700
      Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-06 19:58 +0100
        Re: Coroutines in Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-22 11:13 -0700
          Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-22 22:05 +0200
      Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-07 13:23 +0200
  Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-06 13:51 +0200
    Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-06 22:20 +0100
      Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-07 13:35 +0200
        Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-07 20:55 +0100
          Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-08 12:34 +0200
            Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-08 12:32 +0100
          Re: Coroutines in Forth Stephen Pelc <stephen@vfxforth.com> - 2026-04-09 10:12 +0000
        Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-10 19:01 +0200
          Re: Coroutines in Forth dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-11 11:54 +1000
            Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-05-01 13:07 +0200
          Re: Coroutines in Forth peter <peter.noreply@tin.it> - 2026-04-11 09:49 +0200
          Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-11 22:03 +0200
            Re: Coroutines in Forth dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-12 12:49 +1000
              Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-12 12:13 +0200
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-12 17:39 +0200
                Re: Coroutines in Forth dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-13 10:54 +1000
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-13 19:24 +0200
              Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-12 13:48 +0200
              Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-13 12:13 +0200
              Re: Coroutines in Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-22 11:18 -0700
                Re: Coroutines in Forth dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-23 11:13 +1000
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-23 12:37 +0200
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-24 10:36 -0700
                Re: Coroutines in Forth dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-25 12:12 +1000
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-24 23:31 -0700
                Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-25 10:45 +0200
                Re: Coroutines in Forth dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-25 22:06 +1000
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-25 15:11 +0200
                Re: Coroutines in Forth dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-26 13:33 +1000
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-26 16:28 +0200
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-25 21:46 -0700
                FP stack depth limitations (was: Coroutines in Forth) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-26 05:55 +0000
                Re: FP stack depth limitations Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-26 00:28 -0700
                Re: FP stack depth limitations dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-26 19:55 +1000
                Re: FP stack depth limitations (was: Coroutines in Forth) peter <peter.noreply@tin.it> - 2026-04-26 09:57 +0200
                Re: FP stack depth limitations (was: Coroutines in Forth) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-26 14:34 +0200
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-25 15:01 +0200
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-05-01 13:13 +0200
                Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues (was: Coroutines in Forth) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-25 05:26 +0000
                Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-24 23:55 -0700
                Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-25 08:21 +0000
                Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-25 11:27 +0200
                Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-25 15:43 +0200
                Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-25 17:21 +0000
                Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-26 15:21 +1000
                Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-26 15:08 +0200
                Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-26 00:34 +0200
                Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-26 15:10 +0200
                locals (was: Coroutines in Forth) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-25 04:47 +0000
                Re: locals Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-24 23:21 -0700
                Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-25 06:43 +0000
                Re: locals albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-25 11:43 +0200
                Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-25 10:22 +0000
                Re: locals peter <peter.noreply@tin.it> - 2026-04-25 16:07 +0200
                Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-25 17:38 +0200
                Re: locals albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-26 01:13 +0200
                Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-26 14:03 +0000
                Re: locals peter <peter.noreply@tin.it> - 2026-04-27 09:31 +0200
                Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-27 07:53 +0000
                Re: locals peter <peter.noreply@tin.it> - 2026-04-27 11:52 +0200
                Re: locals albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-26 00:51 +0200
                Re: locals Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-25 22:40 -0700
                Re: locals albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-26 14:55 +0200
                Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-26 09:50 +0000
                Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-26 16:22 +0200
                Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-26 17:04 +0000
                Re: locals dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-27 11:51 +1000
                Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-28 08:21 +0200
                Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-28 08:22 +0200
                Re: locals dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-27 11:12 +1000
                Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-28 14:34 +0200
                Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-28 14:34 +0200
                Re: locals Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-29 12:44 +0100
                Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-29 14:37 +0200
                Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-29 14:44 +0200
                Re: locals Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-05-01 23:50 -0700
                Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-05-02 10:34 +0000
                Re: locals Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-05-01 23:54 -0700
                Re: locals dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-05-02 17:36 +1000
                Re: locals Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-05-02 01:11 -0700
                Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-05-02 15:58 +0000
      Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-07 09:28 -0500
        Re: Coroutines in Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-07 16:12 +0000
          Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-07 18:06 -0500
          Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-08 11:43 +0100
            Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-08 13:16 +0200
              Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-08 11:47 -0500
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-08 21:48 +0100
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-09 07:06 -0500
                Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-09 16:41 +0200
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-09 13:34 -0500
                Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-10 01:23 +0200
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-09 21:34 -0500
                Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-09 13:01 +0200
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-09 07:01 -0500
                Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-09 16:10 +0200
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-09 13:29 -0500
              Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-08 21:26 +0100
          Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-08 14:22 +0200
          Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-28 15:31 +0200
            Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-29 10:49 +0200
              Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-29 15:22 +0200
        Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-08 11:33 +0100
          Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-08 13:07 +0200
            Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-08 22:05 +0100

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