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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #134961
| From | anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.forth |
| Subject | Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues |
| Date | 2026-04-25 08:21 +0000 |
| Organization | Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien |
| Message-ID | <2026Apr25.102141@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> (permalink) |
| References | (5 earlier) <69db0856$1@news.ausics.net> <871pg66epy.fsf@nightsong.com> <nnd$21f50f64$66fb2850@8a22997dea94600d> <2026Apr25.072647@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <87fr4j4jhn.fsf@nightsong.com> |
Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> writes:
>I believe early C compilers didn't attempt much if any register
>allocation.
Yes, they did not allocate auto variables (what we consider locals) to
registers.
>The
>difference was that the C compiler generated straightforward assembly
>code to access those variables even when they were in the stack
>interior. You didn't have to use ROT or juggle stuff to the R stack to
>get to the inner elements.
That's the same with unsophisticated locals implementations like those
of Gforth (I do not mention other Forth systems with such
implementations to protect the guilty).
>Forth for whatever reason
>chose strict stack discipline (with some loopholes like PICK). I
>understand wanting to stay with purity of a model, but a more
>hardware-sympathetic model would have been "stack implemented in RAM".
What do you mean by that? Forth already provides PICK. ROLL and
-ROLL are either slow to implement in RAM or require significant
sophistication. In addition, Gforth has
: stick ( x0 x1 ... xu x u -- x x1 ... xu ) \ gforth-internal
\ replace x0 with x; e.g., 5 PICK 1+ 5 STICK increments the 6th
\ stack element (not recommended).
2 + cells sp@ + ! ;
which is used in the Gforth source code 7 times (compared to 20 times
for PICK, 4 for FOURTH, 38 for THIRD, 308 for OVER and 1128 for DUP),
always with colon-sys-xt-offset as U, so STICK is only used to
manipulate colon-sys control-flow stack items. I have also had little
appetite to use it elsewhere.
In general, in Forth programming one copies things from various places
in stacks with DUP, OVER, PICK, and R@; sometimes you do not need the
item in its original place any more, then you SWAP, ROT or ROLL it
instead of keeping it on the stack and dropping it later (and the item
might be in the way). Very occasuinally, you copy an item deeper into
the stack, as with TUCK, or -ROT or -ROLL it out of the way.
But overwriting an existing stack item with something else as done by
STICK is not something we tend to do, and this also shows in the
absence of such words for the top few stack items (while 1 PICK is
OVER, there is no word that corresponds to 1 STICK). I think the
reason why it is not done is that we avoid keeping dead stack items
around that we might overwrite. Such dead stack items would often be
in the way.
And if someone has the desire for having a storage location that they
want to overwrite, Forth has locals (although I avoid overwriting
them, too, see <https://net2o.de/gforth/Locals-programming-style.html>).
>So I still don't understand the benefit of the "pure abstract stack"
>approach, other than for a few weird special CPU's.
The benefit of not implementing locals is that implementing the Forth
system takes less time and the resulting system is smaller.
PICK tends to be frowned upon because it is a code small that suggests
that you have too much going on on the stack, which makes the program
hard to understand, and you should be looking for alternatives.
ROLL and -ROLL are avoided for the same reason and because they are
slow on many implementations.
As for STICK, see above.
- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: https://forth-standard.org/
EuroForth 2025 proceedings: http://www.euroforth.org/ef25/papers/
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Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-05 23:25 +0100
Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-05 23:30 +0100
Re: Coroutines in Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-05 17:16 -0700
Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-06 19:58 +0100
Re: Coroutines in Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-22 11:13 -0700
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-22 22:05 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-07 13:23 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-06 13:51 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-06 22:20 +0100
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-07 13:35 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-07 20:55 +0100
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-08 12:34 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-08 12:32 +0100
Re: Coroutines in Forth Stephen Pelc <stephen@vfxforth.com> - 2026-04-09 10:12 +0000
Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-10 19:01 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-11 11:54 +1000
Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-05-01 13:07 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth peter <peter.noreply@tin.it> - 2026-04-11 09:49 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-11 22:03 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-12 12:49 +1000
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-12 12:13 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-12 17:39 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-13 10:54 +1000
Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-13 19:24 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-12 13:48 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-13 12:13 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-22 11:18 -0700
Re: Coroutines in Forth dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-23 11:13 +1000
Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-23 12:37 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-24 10:36 -0700
Re: Coroutines in Forth dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-25 12:12 +1000
Re: Coroutines in Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-24 23:31 -0700
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-25 10:45 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-25 22:06 +1000
Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-25 15:11 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-26 13:33 +1000
Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-26 16:28 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-25 21:46 -0700
FP stack depth limitations (was: Coroutines in Forth) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-26 05:55 +0000
Re: FP stack depth limitations Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-26 00:28 -0700
Re: FP stack depth limitations dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-26 19:55 +1000
Re: FP stack depth limitations (was: Coroutines in Forth) peter <peter.noreply@tin.it> - 2026-04-26 09:57 +0200
Re: FP stack depth limitations (was: Coroutines in Forth) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-26 14:34 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-25 15:01 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-05-01 13:13 +0200
Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues (was: Coroutines in Forth) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-25 05:26 +0000
Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-24 23:55 -0700
Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-25 08:21 +0000
Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-25 11:27 +0200
Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-25 15:43 +0200
Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-25 17:21 +0000
Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-26 15:21 +1000
Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-26 15:08 +0200
Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-26 00:34 +0200
Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-26 15:10 +0200
locals (was: Coroutines in Forth) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-25 04:47 +0000
Re: locals Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-24 23:21 -0700
Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-25 06:43 +0000
Re: locals albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-25 11:43 +0200
Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-25 10:22 +0000
Re: locals peter <peter.noreply@tin.it> - 2026-04-25 16:07 +0200
Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-25 17:38 +0200
Re: locals albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-26 01:13 +0200
Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-26 14:03 +0000
Re: locals peter <peter.noreply@tin.it> - 2026-04-27 09:31 +0200
Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-27 07:53 +0000
Re: locals peter <peter.noreply@tin.it> - 2026-04-27 11:52 +0200
Re: locals albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-26 00:51 +0200
Re: locals Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-25 22:40 -0700
Re: locals albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-26 14:55 +0200
Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-26 09:50 +0000
Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-26 16:22 +0200
Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-26 17:04 +0000
Re: locals dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-27 11:51 +1000
Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-28 08:21 +0200
Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-28 08:22 +0200
Re: locals dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-27 11:12 +1000
Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-28 14:34 +0200
Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-28 14:34 +0200
Re: locals Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-29 12:44 +0100
Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-29 14:37 +0200
Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-29 14:44 +0200
Re: locals Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-05-01 23:50 -0700
Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-05-02 10:34 +0000
Re: locals Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-05-01 23:54 -0700
Re: locals dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-05-02 17:36 +1000
Re: locals Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-05-02 01:11 -0700
Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-05-02 15:58 +0000
Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-07 09:28 -0500
Re: Coroutines in Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-07 16:12 +0000
Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-07 18:06 -0500
Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-08 11:43 +0100
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-08 13:16 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-08 11:47 -0500
Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-08 21:48 +0100
Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-09 07:06 -0500
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-09 16:41 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-09 13:34 -0500
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-10 01:23 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-09 21:34 -0500
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-09 13:01 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-09 07:01 -0500
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-09 16:10 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-09 13:29 -0500
Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-08 21:26 +0100
Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-08 14:22 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-28 15:31 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-29 10:49 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-29 15:22 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-08 11:33 +0100
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-08 13:07 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-08 22:05 +0100
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