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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #134972
| From | anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.forth |
| Subject | Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues |
| Date | 2026-04-25 17:21 +0000 |
| Organization | Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien |
| Message-ID | <2026Apr25.192111@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> (permalink) |
| References | (5 earlier) <69db0856$1@news.ausics.net> <871pg66epy.fsf@nightsong.com> <nnd$21f50f64$66fb2850@8a22997dea94600d> <2026Apr25.072647@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <nnd$1196d1a5$0da70c85@6de98b5b6c1b0418> |
Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> writes:
>On 25-04-2026 07:26, Anton Ertl wrote:
>> Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> writes:
[reinserted deleted, relevant context]
>>> If you want to use a language that is "ideologically devoted" to the
>>> architecture, maybe you shouldn't use Forth at all - and stick with C.
>> I don't see anything about C that is closer to the hardware than Forth
>> is, and I think that both languages are about equally '"ideologically
>> devoted" to the architecture'. In particular, a C local variable is
>> no closer to a register (the most efficient hardware feature for
>> storing data) than a stack item or return stack item is, and register
>> allocation of any of the three is similarly difficult (with big
>> differences in difficulty between solutions that provide some register
>> allocation to those that are so reliable that you usually count on
>> them).
>
>Well, you're actually shooting at Paul Rubin - not at me. Thank you! I
>take all the help I can get!
Actually, this whole paragraph is a reaction on your statement, not
his. You deleted it for whatever reason, so I reinserted it.
Concerning Paul Rubin, just because he is wrong does not mean you are
right.
>> (..) and they often find some arguments that appeal to
>> elitism (i.e., only the chosen ones can use this programming language
>> for the elite as it should be used, and the others should program in
>> Python or "should never have been allowed to touch a keyboard" (Ulrich
>> Drepper).
>
>It's your own pal Bernd that said: "A good programmer will write even
>better code in Forth. A bad programmer will write abysmal code in Forth.
>And I'm sorry to say - but most programmers are quite bad."
>
>So, either you agree with him or we have an unfortunate departure of one
>of the most foremost members of Gforth. Because this states - in no
>uncertain words - that Forth programmers *ARE* elite.
What departure? We disagree on a number of things.
And the issue is not whether Forth programmers or any other
programmers are elite, but that many programmers think that they are
elite (whether they are or aren't) and that the designers or advocates
of deficient programming systems make use of that to dupe them, along
the lines of: "You as elite programmers can cope with this deficiency
[of course they don't call it a definiency], it's only subpar
programmers [more elaborate denigrations are common, see Ulrich
Drepper] who complain about it."
In the case of Forth and locals this tactic has not worked very well,
so even Forth, Inc. (who have been the most vocal among the commercial
Forth providers about their dislike of locals) have implemented
locals. But of course we see the echo of all of this still around
here.
- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: https://forth-standard.org/
EuroForth 2025 proceedings: http://www.euroforth.org/ef25/papers/
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Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-05 23:25 +0100
Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-05 23:30 +0100
Re: Coroutines in Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-05 17:16 -0700
Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-06 19:58 +0100
Re: Coroutines in Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-22 11:13 -0700
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-22 22:05 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-07 13:23 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-06 13:51 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-06 22:20 +0100
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-07 13:35 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-07 20:55 +0100
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-08 12:34 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-08 12:32 +0100
Re: Coroutines in Forth Stephen Pelc <stephen@vfxforth.com> - 2026-04-09 10:12 +0000
Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-10 19:01 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-11 11:54 +1000
Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-05-01 13:07 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth peter <peter.noreply@tin.it> - 2026-04-11 09:49 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-11 22:03 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-12 12:49 +1000
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-12 12:13 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-12 17:39 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-13 10:54 +1000
Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-13 19:24 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-12 13:48 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-13 12:13 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-22 11:18 -0700
Re: Coroutines in Forth dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-23 11:13 +1000
Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-23 12:37 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-24 10:36 -0700
Re: Coroutines in Forth dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-25 12:12 +1000
Re: Coroutines in Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-24 23:31 -0700
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-25 10:45 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-25 22:06 +1000
Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-25 15:11 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-26 13:33 +1000
Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-26 16:28 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-25 21:46 -0700
FP stack depth limitations (was: Coroutines in Forth) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-26 05:55 +0000
Re: FP stack depth limitations Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-26 00:28 -0700
Re: FP stack depth limitations dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-26 19:55 +1000
Re: FP stack depth limitations (was: Coroutines in Forth) peter <peter.noreply@tin.it> - 2026-04-26 09:57 +0200
Re: FP stack depth limitations (was: Coroutines in Forth) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-26 14:34 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-25 15:01 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-05-01 13:13 +0200
Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues (was: Coroutines in Forth) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-25 05:26 +0000
Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-24 23:55 -0700
Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-25 08:21 +0000
Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-25 11:27 +0200
Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-25 15:43 +0200
Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-25 17:21 +0000
Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-26 15:21 +1000
Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-26 15:08 +0200
Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-26 00:34 +0200
Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-26 15:10 +0200
locals (was: Coroutines in Forth) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-25 04:47 +0000
Re: locals Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-24 23:21 -0700
Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-25 06:43 +0000
Re: locals albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-25 11:43 +0200
Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-25 10:22 +0000
Re: locals peter <peter.noreply@tin.it> - 2026-04-25 16:07 +0200
Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-25 17:38 +0200
Re: locals albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-26 01:13 +0200
Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-26 14:03 +0000
Re: locals peter <peter.noreply@tin.it> - 2026-04-27 09:31 +0200
Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-27 07:53 +0000
Re: locals peter <peter.noreply@tin.it> - 2026-04-27 11:52 +0200
Re: locals albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-26 00:51 +0200
Re: locals Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-25 22:40 -0700
Re: locals albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-26 14:55 +0200
Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-26 09:50 +0000
Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-26 16:22 +0200
Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-26 17:04 +0000
Re: locals dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-27 11:51 +1000
Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-28 08:21 +0200
Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-28 08:22 +0200
Re: locals dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-27 11:12 +1000
Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-28 14:34 +0200
Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-28 14:34 +0200
Re: locals Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-29 12:44 +0100
Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-29 14:37 +0200
Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-29 14:44 +0200
Re: locals Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-05-01 23:50 -0700
Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-05-02 10:34 +0000
Re: locals Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-05-01 23:54 -0700
Re: locals dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-05-02 17:36 +1000
Re: locals Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-05-02 01:11 -0700
Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-05-02 15:58 +0000
Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-07 09:28 -0500
Re: Coroutines in Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-07 16:12 +0000
Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-07 18:06 -0500
Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-08 11:43 +0100
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-08 13:16 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-08 11:47 -0500
Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-08 21:48 +0100
Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-09 07:06 -0500
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-09 16:41 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-09 13:34 -0500
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-10 01:23 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-09 21:34 -0500
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-09 13:01 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-09 07:01 -0500
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-09 16:10 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-09 13:29 -0500
Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-08 21:26 +0100
Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-08 14:22 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-28 15:31 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-29 10:49 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-29 15:22 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-08 11:33 +0100
Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-08 13:07 +0200
Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-08 22:05 +0100
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