Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues

From	Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues
Date	2026-04-24 23:55 -0700
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<87fr4j4jhn.fsf@nightsong.com> (permalink)
References	(4 earlier) <nnd$4d4782db$73d0020c@69cc4648be712fe3> <69db0856$1@news.ausics.net> <871pg66epy.fsf@nightsong.com> <nnd$21f50f64$66fb2850@8a22997dea94600d> <2026Apr25.072647@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>

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anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes:
> I don't see anything about C that is closer to the hardware than Forth
> is, and I think that both languages are about equally '"ideologically
> devoted" to the architecture'.  In particular, a C local variable is
> no closer to a register (the most efficient hardware feature for
> storing data) than a stack item or return stack item is, and register
> allocation of any of the three is similarly difficult...

I believe early C compilers didn't attempt much if any register
allocation.  You could say "register int x" to manually assign a
register to x if one was available.  You were limited to 2 or 3 of those
on the PDP-11.  Local variables in C otherwise lived in the stack.  The
difference was that the C compiler generated straightforward assembly
code to access those variables even when they were in the stack
interior.  You didn't have to use ROT or juggle stuff to the R stack to
get to the inner elements.

In assembler, you could also program in a stack-oriented style yet
straightforwardly access the inner elements.  Forth for whatever reason
chose strict stack discipline (with some loopholes like PICK).  I
understand wanting to stay with purity of a model, but a more
hardware-sympathetic model would have been "stack implemented in RAM".

So I still don't understand the benefit of the "pure abstract stack"
approach, other than for a few weird special CPU's.

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Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-05 23:25 +0100
  Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-05 23:30 +0100
    Re: Coroutines in Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-05 17:16 -0700
      Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-06 19:58 +0100
        Re: Coroutines in Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-22 11:13 -0700
          Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-22 22:05 +0200
      Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-07 13:23 +0200
  Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-06 13:51 +0200
    Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-06 22:20 +0100
      Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-07 13:35 +0200
        Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-07 20:55 +0100
          Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-08 12:34 +0200
            Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-08 12:32 +0100
          Re: Coroutines in Forth Stephen Pelc <stephen@vfxforth.com> - 2026-04-09 10:12 +0000
        Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-10 19:01 +0200
          Re: Coroutines in Forth dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-11 11:54 +1000
            Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-05-01 13:07 +0200
          Re: Coroutines in Forth peter <peter.noreply@tin.it> - 2026-04-11 09:49 +0200
          Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-11 22:03 +0200
            Re: Coroutines in Forth dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-12 12:49 +1000
              Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-12 12:13 +0200
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-12 17:39 +0200
                Re: Coroutines in Forth dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-13 10:54 +1000
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-13 19:24 +0200
              Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-12 13:48 +0200
              Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-13 12:13 +0200
              Re: Coroutines in Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-22 11:18 -0700
                Re: Coroutines in Forth dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-23 11:13 +1000
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-23 12:37 +0200
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-24 10:36 -0700
                Re: Coroutines in Forth dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-25 12:12 +1000
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-24 23:31 -0700
                Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-25 10:45 +0200
                Re: Coroutines in Forth dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-25 22:06 +1000
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-25 15:11 +0200
                Re: Coroutines in Forth dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-26 13:33 +1000
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-26 16:28 +0200
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-25 21:46 -0700
                FP stack depth limitations (was: Coroutines in Forth) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-26 05:55 +0000
                Re: FP stack depth limitations Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-26 00:28 -0700
                Re: FP stack depth limitations dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-26 19:55 +1000
                Re: FP stack depth limitations (was: Coroutines in Forth) peter <peter.noreply@tin.it> - 2026-04-26 09:57 +0200
                Re: FP stack depth limitations (was: Coroutines in Forth) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-26 14:34 +0200
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-25 15:01 +0200
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-05-01 13:13 +0200
                Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues (was: Coroutines in Forth) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-25 05:26 +0000
                Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-24 23:55 -0700
                Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-25 08:21 +0000
                Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-25 11:27 +0200
                Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-25 15:43 +0200
                Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-25 17:21 +0000
                Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-26 15:21 +1000
                Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-26 15:08 +0200
                Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-26 00:34 +0200
                Re: Forth, C, hardware, and programming virtues Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-26 15:10 +0200
                locals (was: Coroutines in Forth) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-25 04:47 +0000
                Re: locals Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-24 23:21 -0700
                Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-25 06:43 +0000
                Re: locals albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-25 11:43 +0200
                Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-25 10:22 +0000
                Re: locals peter <peter.noreply@tin.it> - 2026-04-25 16:07 +0200
                Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-25 17:38 +0200
                Re: locals albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-26 01:13 +0200
                Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-26 14:03 +0000
                Re: locals peter <peter.noreply@tin.it> - 2026-04-27 09:31 +0200
                Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-27 07:53 +0000
                Re: locals peter <peter.noreply@tin.it> - 2026-04-27 11:52 +0200
                Re: locals albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-26 00:51 +0200
                Re: locals Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-04-25 22:40 -0700
                Re: locals albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-26 14:55 +0200
                Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-26 09:50 +0000
                Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-26 16:22 +0200
                Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-26 17:04 +0000
                Re: locals dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-27 11:51 +1000
                Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-28 08:21 +0200
                Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-28 08:22 +0200
                Re: locals dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-04-27 11:12 +1000
                Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-28 14:34 +0200
                Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-28 14:34 +0200
                Re: locals Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-29 12:44 +0100
                Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-29 14:37 +0200
                Re: locals Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-29 14:44 +0200
                Re: locals Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-05-01 23:50 -0700
                Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-05-02 10:34 +0000
                Re: locals Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-05-01 23:54 -0700
                Re: locals dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2026-05-02 17:36 +1000
                Re: locals Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-05-02 01:11 -0700
                Re: locals anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-05-02 15:58 +0000
      Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-07 09:28 -0500
        Re: Coroutines in Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-04-07 16:12 +0000
          Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-07 18:06 -0500
          Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-08 11:43 +0100
            Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-08 13:16 +0200
              Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-08 11:47 -0500
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-08 21:48 +0100
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-09 07:06 -0500
                Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-09 16:41 +0200
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-09 13:34 -0500
                Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-10 01:23 +0200
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-09 21:34 -0500
                Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-09 13:01 +0200
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-09 07:01 -0500
                Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-09 16:10 +0200
                Re: Coroutines in Forth Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2026-04-09 13:29 -0500
              Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-08 21:26 +0100
          Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-08 14:22 +0200
          Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-28 15:31 +0200
            Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-29 10:49 +0200
              Re: Coroutines in Forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2026-04-29 15:22 +0200
        Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-08 11:33 +0100
          Re: Coroutines in Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2026-04-08 13:07 +0200
            Re: Coroutines in Forth Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2026-04-08 22:05 +0100

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