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Re: VHS Tape Collectors

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  Re: VHS Tape Collectors felix <felix@real_felix.invalid> - 2017-03-20 13:42 +1100
    Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-03-20 11:03 +0800
      Re: VHS Tape Collectors BruceS <bruces42@hotmail.com> - 2017-03-20 14:18 -0600
        Re: VHS Tape Collectors not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2017-03-20 22:15 +0000
          Re: VHS Tape Collectors Lucifer Morningstar <Barry@saymyname.com> - 2017-03-21 10:09 +1100
            Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-03-21 08:51 +0800
              Re: VHS Tape Collectors Lucifer Morningstar <Barry@saymyname.com> - 2017-03-21 13:34 +1100
          Re: VHS Tape Collectors felix <felix@real_felix.invalid> - 2017-03-21 11:47 +1100
            Re: VHS Tape Collectors not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2017-03-22 22:21 +0000
        Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-03-21 06:47 +0800
          Re: VHS Tape Collectors felix <felix@real_felix.invalid> - 2017-03-21 15:24 +1100
            Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-03-21 14:10 +0800
              Re: VHS Tape Collectors BruceS <bruces42@hotmail.com> - 2017-03-21 10:17 -0600
                Re: VHS Tape Collectors Jeßus <j@j.net> - 2017-03-22 09:18 +1100
                  Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-03-22 13:31 +0800
                    Re: VHS Tape Collectors BruceS <bruces42@hotmail.com> - 2017-03-22 10:04 -0600
                    Re: VHS Tape Collectors Jeßus <j@j.net> - 2017-03-23 06:30 +1100
                Re: VHS Tape Collectors keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-03-22 19:28 +1000
                  Re: VHS Tape Collectors Trevor <trevor@home.net> - 2017-03-22 21:29 +1100
                    Re: VHS Tape Collectors keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-03-22 20:41 +1000
                      Re: VHS Tape Collectors Trevor <trevor@home.net> - 2017-03-24 12:23 +1100
                      Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-03-25 10:05 +0800
                  Re: VHS Tape Collectors Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2017-03-22 20:22 +0000
                    Re: VHS Tape Collectors keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-03-23 10:26 +1000
                  Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-03-23 12:28 +0800
                    Re: VHS Tape Collectors keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-03-23 16:20 +1000
                      Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-03-23 22:45 +0800
                    Re: VHS Tape Collectors Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2017-03-23 14:39 +0000
                      Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-03-24 22:20 +0800
                        Re: VHS Tape Collectors Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2017-03-24 14:55 +0000
                          Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-03-25 07:04 +0800
                            Re: VHS Tape Collectors Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2017-03-26 20:14 +0000
                              Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-04-04 17:43 +0800
                                Re: VHS Tape Collectors Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> - 2017-04-05 07:44 +1000
                                  Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-04-05 08:07 +0800
                                    Re: VHS Tape Collectors keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-04-05 14:26 +1000
                                      Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-04-05 14:05 +0800
                                        Re: VHS Tape Collectors felix <felix@real_felix.invalid> - 2017-04-05 19:34 +1000
                                          Re: VHS Tape Collectors keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-04-05 21:20 +1000
                                        Re: VHS Tape Collectors keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-04-05 21:19 +1000
                          Re: VHS Tape Collectors keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-03-25 12:26 +1000
                            Re: VHS Tape Collectors "Blue Heeler" <woof@barque.org> - 2017-03-25 02:47 +0000
                              Re: VHS Tape Collectors keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-03-25 13:47 +1000
                                Re: VHS Tape Collectors "Blue Heeler" <woof@barque.org> - 2017-03-25 03:56 +0000
                                  Re: VHS Tape Collectors keithr0 <user@account.invalid> - 2017-03-25 15:36 +1000
          Re: VHS Tape Collectors Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2017-03-22 20:09 +0000
            Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-03-23 12:38 +0800
              Re: VHS Tape Collectors Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2017-03-23 14:34 +0000
                Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-03-24 06:49 +0800
        Re: VHS Tape Collectors felix <felix@real_felix.invalid> - 2017-03-21 11:42 +1100
          Re: VHS Tape Collectors BruceS <bruces42@hotmail.com> - 2017-03-21 10:24 -0600
        Re: VHS Tape Collectors Trevor <trevor@home.net> - 2017-03-21 18:50 +1100
          Re: VHS Tape Collectors BruceS <bruces42@hotmail.com> - 2017-03-21 10:31 -0600
            Re: VHS Tape Collectors Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> - 2017-03-22 07:53 +0800

Page 3 of 3 — ← Prev page 1 2 [3]

#59276

On 3/25/2017 12:55 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
>> On 23/03/2017 10:39 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>> Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>> The most primitive computer I programmed had a card reader. You would
>>>> use a pencil to mark the boxes and the card reader would then load the
>>>> program and run it.
>>>>
>>>> I thought it was called something like the System 2000 but I could
>>>> be wrong.
>>>
>>>   What was the programming language?
>>>
>>>   If BASIC, it may have been a HP (Hewlett Packard) 2000 Time Share
>>> System. Those systems often had an optical marked-card reader, so users
>>> - often students - could write their programs offline, needing only a
>>> pencil. It was one of the genarations of HP computers I supported
>>> (working for HP).
>>
>> I'm pretty sure it was BASIC. There was a terminal that looked 70's era.
>> Black keyboard integrated in with the CRT very basic looking thing.
>>
>> Yes, we would all fill our cards in to program it and then feed them in
>> to program it. Pretty sure you could do a BASIC listing once loaded.
>>
>> But, it's from very distant memory and I really can't recall much more
>> about it.
>
>   The system was probably similar to this one.
>
> <http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=411>
>
>   This is the second generation version, because it has two 2100A/S
> computers, instead of 2116 (2114?) ones, and a 7905 moving-head disc
> (no, not disk), instead of earlier head-per track ones. On the
> bottom-right the papertape reader and on the top-left a (7970B)
> reel-to-reel tape drive.
>
>   The card-reader probably looked like this:
>
> <http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=277>
>
>   The terminal probably was one of these ones:
>
> <http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=94>
>
>   'My' (Delta werken) system looked like the left-cabinet of the 2000F
> Time Share System, with the addition of the papertape reader. It's
> computer probably was a newer one, of the 21MX series:
>
> <http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=108>
>
>   Thanks for letting me have another look in the HP Computer Museum!
>
ICL also made optical mark readers (among others)

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#59277

keithr0 wrote:

> On 3/25/2017 12:55 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> >Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
> > > On 23/03/2017 10:39 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> >>>Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
> > > > [...]
> > > > > The most primitive computer I programmed had a card reader.
> > > > > You would use a pencil to mark the boxes and the card reader
> > > > > would then load the program and run it.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I thought it was called something like the System 2000 but I
> > > > > could be wrong.
> > > > 
> >>>  What was the programming language?
> > > > 
> >>>  If BASIC, it may have been a HP (Hewlett Packard) 2000 Time Share
> > > > System. Those systems often had an optical marked-card reader,
> > > > so users - often students - could write their programs offline,
> > > > needing only a pencil. It was one of the genarations of HP
> > > > computers I supported (working for HP).
> > > 
> > > I'm pretty sure it was BASIC. There was a terminal that looked
> > > 70's era.  Black keyboard integrated in with the CRT very basic
> > > looking thing.
> > > 
> > > Yes, we would all fill our cards in to program it and then feed
> > > them in to program it. Pretty sure you could do a BASIC listing
> > > once loaded.
> > > 
> > > But, it's from very distant memory and I really can't recall much
> > > more about it.
> > 
> >  The system was probably similar to this one.
> > 
> > <http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=411>
> > 
> >  This is the second generation version, because it has two 2100A/S
> > computers, instead of 2116 (2114?) ones, and a 7905 moving-head disc
> > (no, not disk), instead of earlier head-per track ones. On the
> > bottom-right the papertape reader and on the top-left a (7970B)
> > reel-to-reel tape drive.
> > 
> >  The card-reader probably looked like this:
> > 
> > <http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=277>
> > 
> >  The terminal probably was one of these ones:
> > 
> > <http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=94>
> > 
> >  'My' (Delta werken) system looked like the left-cabinet of the
> > 2000F Time Share System, with the addition of the papertape reader.
> > It's computer probably was a newer one, of the 21MX series:
> > 
> > <http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=108>
> > 
> >  Thanks for letting me have another look in the HP Computer Museum!
> > 
> ICL also made optical mark readers (among others)

As did NCR

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#59278

On 3/25/2017 12:47 PM, Blue Heeler wrote:
> keithr0 wrote:
>
>> On 3/25/2017 12:55 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>> Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
>>>> On 23/03/2017 10:39 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>>>> Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>> The most primitive computer I programmed had a card reader.
>>>>>> You would use a pencil to mark the boxes and the card reader
>>>>>> would then load the program and run it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought it was called something like the System 2000 but I
>>>>>> could be wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>>  What was the programming language?
>>>>>
>>>>>  If BASIC, it may have been a HP (Hewlett Packard) 2000 Time Share
>>>>> System. Those systems often had an optical marked-card reader,
>>>>> so users - often students - could write their programs offline,
>>>>> needing only a pencil. It was one of the genarations of HP
>>>>> computers I supported (working for HP).
>>>>
>>>> I'm pretty sure it was BASIC. There was a terminal that looked
>>>> 70's era.  Black keyboard integrated in with the CRT very basic
>>>> looking thing.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, we would all fill our cards in to program it and then feed
>>>> them in to program it. Pretty sure you could do a BASIC listing
>>>> once loaded.
>>>>
>>>> But, it's from very distant memory and I really can't recall much
>>>> more about it.
>>>
>>>  The system was probably similar to this one.
>>>
>>> <http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=411>
>>>
>>>  This is the second generation version, because it has two 2100A/S
>>> computers, instead of 2116 (2114?) ones, and a 7905 moving-head disc
>>> (no, not disk), instead of earlier head-per track ones. On the
>>> bottom-right the papertape reader and on the top-left a (7970B)
>>> reel-to-reel tape drive.
>>>
>>>  The card-reader probably looked like this:
>>>
>>> <http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=277>
>>>
>>>  The terminal probably was one of these ones:
>>>
>>> <http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=94>
>>>
>>>  'My' (Delta werken) system looked like the left-cabinet of the
>>> 2000F Time Share System, with the addition of the papertape reader.
>>> It's computer probably was a newer one, of the 21MX series:
>>>
>>> <http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=108>
>>>
>>>  Thanks for letting me have another look in the HP Computer Museum!
>>>
>> ICL also made optical mark readers (among others)
>
> As did NCR
>
The only ones that I had experience of were on an ICL machine that ABS 
used for a mid 1970s census, they could have been made by anybody but 
had ICL on the covers. IBM made them too. Even large computer 
manufacturers buy in stuff and put their own name on it.

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#59279

keithr0 wrote:

> On 3/25/2017 12:47 PM, Blue Heeler wrote:
> > keithr0 wrote:
> > 
> > > On 3/25/2017 12:55 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> >>>Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
> > > > > On 23/03/2017 10:39 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> >>>>>Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
> > > > > > [...]
> > > > > > > The most primitive computer I programmed had a card
> > > > > > > reader.  You would use a pencil to mark the boxes and the
> > > > > > > card reader would then load the program and run it.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I thought it was called something like the System 2000
> > > > > > > but I could be wrong.
> > > > > > 
> >>>>> What was the programming language?
> > > > > > 
> >>>>> If BASIC, it may have been a HP (Hewlett Packard) 2000 Time
> Share
> > > > > > System. Those systems often had an optical marked-card
> > > > > > reader, so users - often students - could write their
> > > > > > programs offline, needing only a pencil. It was one of the
> > > > > > genarations of HP computers I supported (working for HP).
> > > > > 
> > > > > I'm pretty sure it was BASIC. There was a terminal that looked
> > > > > 70's era.  Black keyboard integrated in with the CRT very
> > > > > basic looking thing.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Yes, we would all fill our cards in to program it and then
> > > > > feed them in to program it. Pretty sure you could do a BASIC
> > > > > listing once loaded.
> > > > > 
> > > > > But, it's from very distant memory and I really can't recall
> > > > > much more about it.
> > > > 
> >>> The system was probably similar to this one.
> > > > 
> > > > <http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=411>
> > > > 
> >>> This is the second generation version, because it has two 2100A/S
> > > > computers, instead of 2116 (2114?) ones, and a 7905 moving-head
> > > > disc (no, not disk), instead of earlier head-per track ones. On
> > > > the bottom-right the papertape reader and on the top-left a
> > > > (7970B) reel-to-reel tape drive.
> > > > 
> >>> The card-reader probably looked like this:
> > > > 
> > > > <http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=277>
> > > > 
> >>> The terminal probably was one of these ones:
> > > > 
> > > > <http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=94>
> > > > 
> >>> 'My' (Delta werken) system looked like the left-cabinet of the
> > > > 2000F Time Share System, with the addition of the papertape
> > > > reader.  It's computer probably was a newer one, of the 21MX
> > > > series:
> > > > 
> > > > <http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=108>
> > > > 
> >>> Thanks for letting me have another look in the HP Computer Museum!
> > > > 
> > > ICL also made optical mark readers (among others)
> > 
> > As did NCR
> > 
> The only ones that I had experience of were on an ICL machine that
> ABS used for a mid 1970s census, they could have been made by anybody
> but had ICL on the covers. IBM made them too. Even large computer
> manufacturers buy in stuff and put their own name on it.

Given NCR's background in mechanical and electro/mechanical cash
registers, adding machines and accounting machines, you will understand
that they had immense expertise to bring to any device needing a
mechanism.

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#59280

On 3/25/2017 1:56 PM, Blue Heeler wrote:
> keithr0 wrote:
>
>> On 3/25/2017 12:47 PM, Blue Heeler wrote:
>>> keithr0 wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/25/2017 12:55 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>>>> Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 23/03/2017 10:39 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>>>>>> Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>> The most primitive computer I programmed had a card
>>>>>>>> reader.  You would use a pencil to mark the boxes and the
>>>>>>>> card reader would then load the program and run it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I thought it was called something like the System 2000
>>>>>>>> but I could be wrong.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What was the programming language?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If BASIC, it may have been a HP (Hewlett Packard) 2000 Time
>> Share
>>>>>>> System. Those systems often had an optical marked-card
>>>>>>> reader, so users - often students - could write their
>>>>>>> programs offline, needing only a pencil. It was one of the
>>>>>>> genarations of HP computers I supported (working for HP).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm pretty sure it was BASIC. There was a terminal that looked
>>>>>> 70's era.  Black keyboard integrated in with the CRT very
>>>>>> basic looking thing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, we would all fill our cards in to program it and then
>>>>>> feed them in to program it. Pretty sure you could do a BASIC
>>>>>> listing once loaded.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But, it's from very distant memory and I really can't recall
>>>>>> much more about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> The system was probably similar to this one.
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=411>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is the second generation version, because it has two 2100A/S
>>>>> computers, instead of 2116 (2114?) ones, and a 7905 moving-head
>>>>> disc (no, not disk), instead of earlier head-per track ones. On
>>>>> the bottom-right the papertape reader and on the top-left a
>>>>> (7970B) reel-to-reel tape drive.
>>>>>
>>>>> The card-reader probably looked like this:
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=277>
>>>>>
>>>>> The terminal probably was one of these ones:
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=94>
>>>>>
>>>>> 'My' (Delta werken) system looked like the left-cabinet of the
>>>>> 2000F Time Share System, with the addition of the papertape
>>>>> reader.  It's computer probably was a newer one, of the 21MX
>>>>> series:
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=108>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for letting me have another look in the HP Computer Museum!
>>>>>
>>>> ICL also made optical mark readers (among others)
>>>
>>> As did NCR
>>>
>> The only ones that I had experience of were on an ICL machine that
>> ABS used for a mid 1970s census, they could have been made by anybody
>> but had ICL on the covers. IBM made them too. Even large computer
>> manufacturers buy in stuff and put their own name on it.
>
> Given NCR's background in mechanical and electro/mechanical cash
> registers, adding machines and accounting machines, you will understand
> that they had immense expertise to bring to any device needing a
> mechanism.
>
Same goes for IBM, I had the "Pleasure" of being the national support 
engineer for several of their large electro-mechanical machines for a 
third party maintenance organisation. A couple of examples:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_3890 (note the picture, fully blown 
machines were more than 10 metres long)

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiBoOrc9vDSAhUBWrwKHcehCkYQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fprezi.com%2Fnq1l3oryqpvw%2Fprinter%2F&psig=AFQjCNFklNQ55TMt-z9JAycApx2BPXTU7g&ust=1490506269706551
(IBM 3800 laser printer 20000lpm, could empty a double size box of 
fanfold paper in less than5 minutes. The machine was about the size of a 
Falcon, we fed it with 1.5 metre diameter rolls of paper that weighed 
better than a ton.)

Never did bother messing around with toy machines.

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#59256

Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
> On 21/03/2017 4:18 AM, BruceS wrote:
[...]
> > You wouldn't happen to have a paper tape reader as well, would you?
> 
> No I don't and I don't know anyone who has one.
> Do you have some paper tapes and what were they from?

  Yes, I have (some paper tapes).
  
  They are the (relocatable?) binaries and (probably also) the source
code of the data-logging software I wrote for the waterworks which were
created in the south (Zeeland) of The Netherlands to protect the land
from floods from the sea (there was a flood in 1953 which killed a lot
of people).

  Similar waterworks are now constructed in/near New Orleans
(post-Katrina) by Dutch contractors, but no, they don't use my
software/system anymore! :-)

  No, I don't have a papertape reader! :-) But for the source it's not
strictly needed. At the time - probably late 60's early 70's - one of my
colleagues could read ASCII papertape by just looking at it! 

  Part of the software is also on 9-track reel-to-reel magnetic tape,

  It's of course only for the memories that I keep this stuff (and to
confuse the hell out of the Martians when they come visiting).

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#59263

On 23/03/2017 4:09 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
>> On 21/03/2017 4:18 AM, BruceS wrote:
> [...]
>>> You wouldn't happen to have a paper tape reader as well, would you?
>>
>> No I don't and I don't know anyone who has one.
>> Do you have some paper tapes and what were they from?
>
>   Yes, I have (some paper tapes).
>
>   They are the (relocatable?) binaries and (probably also) the source
> code of the data-logging software I wrote for the waterworks which were
> created in the south (Zeeland) of The Netherlands to protect the land
> from floods from the sea (there was a flood in 1953 which killed a lot
> of people).
>

Neeltje Jans and the Deltawerken I presume? Very impressive, and a job 
well done!

>   Similar waterworks are now constructed in/near New Orleans
> (post-Katrina) by Dutch contractors, but no, they don't use my
> software/system anymore! :-)
>
>   No, I don't have a papertape reader! :-) But for the source it's not
> strictly needed. At the time - probably late 60's early 70's - one of my
> colleagues could read ASCII papertape by just looking at it!
>

Yeah, I can understand that - really just pattern recognition that you 
could get pretty good at with practice I suppose.

>   Part of the software is also on 9-track reel-to-reel magnetic tape,
>
>   It's of course only for the memories that I keep this stuff (and to
> confuse the hell out of the Martians when they come visiting).
>

Hah :-)

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#59265

Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
> On 23/03/2017 4:09 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
> >> On 21/03/2017 4:18 AM, BruceS wrote:
> > [...]
> >>> You wouldn't happen to have a paper tape reader as well, would you?
> >>
> >> No I don't and I don't know anyone who has one.
> >> Do you have some paper tapes and what were they from?
> >
> >   Yes, I have (some paper tapes).
> >
> >   They are the (relocatable?) binaries and (probably also) the source
> > code of the data-logging software I wrote for the waterworks which were
> > created in the south (Zeeland) of The Netherlands to protect the land
> > from floods from the sea (there was a flood in 1953 which killed a lot
> > of people).
> 
> Neeltje Jans and the Deltawerken I presume? Very impressive, and a job 
> well done!

  Yep, you got it in one!

  Sadly enough I was never present (not allowed) on the ships when they
used 'my' system to monitor the correct sinking of the 'caissons'.

  They got only one shot at correctly sinking the 'caissons', so the
data logged by 'my' system was used to make the next sinking operation
better than the last one (if needed of course).

[...]

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#59269

On 23/03/2017 10:34 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
>> On 23/03/2017 4:09 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>> Clocky <notgonn@happen.com> wrote:
>>>> On 21/03/2017 4:18 AM, BruceS wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>>> You wouldn't happen to have a paper tape reader as well, would you?
>>>>
>>>> No I don't and I don't know anyone who has one.
>>>> Do you have some paper tapes and what were they from?
>>>
>>>   Yes, I have (some paper tapes).
>>>
>>>   They are the (relocatable?) binaries and (probably also) the source
>>> code of the data-logging software I wrote for the waterworks which were
>>> created in the south (Zeeland) of The Netherlands to protect the land
>>> from floods from the sea (there was a flood in 1953 which killed a lot
>>> of people).
>>
>> Neeltje Jans and the Deltawerken I presume? Very impressive, and a job
>> well done!
>
>   Yep, you got it in one!
>

I would be ashamed if I hadn't!

>   Sadly enough I was never present (not allowed) on the ships when they
> used 'my' system to monitor the correct sinking of the 'caissons'.
>

Pity you weren't allowed.

>   They got only one shot at correctly sinking the 'caissons', so the
> data logged by 'my' system was used to make the next sinking operation
> better than the last one (if needed of course).
>
> [...]
>


Cool story, and you played your part in that development and nobody can 
take that away from you :-)

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#59236

On Tuesday, 21 Mar 2017 7:18 AM, BruceS wrote:
> On 03/19/2017 09:03 PM, Clocky wrote:
>> On 20/03/2017 10:42 AM, felix wrote:
>>> On Monday, 20 Mar 2017 8:04 AM, BruceS wrote:
>>>> On 03/18/2017 08:36 PM, felix wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, 16 Mar 2017 10:52 PM, Clocky wrote:
>>>>>> On 15/03/2017 10:27 PM, Trevor wrote:
>>>>>>> On 15/03/2017 11:45 AM, Clocky wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2017 5:54 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Trevor <trevor@home.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 14/03/2017 9:16 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> That said, I wouldn't go to the trouble of
>>>>>>>>>>> transferring them all to HDD
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Me either, but only because *very few* are worth the effort
>>>>>>>>>> involved.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> (or HDDs, because they have been known to be much less reliable
>>>>>>>>>>> than tapes), so maybe it's a moot point anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No. With digital you can have as many back-ups as needed, and
>>>>>>>>>> transfer
>>>>>>>>>> them as often as necessary without further degradation.
>>>>>>>>>> Something you
>>>>>>>>>> simply cannot do with any analog media.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Having to make backups because the medium itself (Hard Disks) is
>>>>>>>>> less reliable is half of the effort. Especially because some HDD
>>>>>>>>> models of old have been known to "stick" and fail to spin up 
>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>> being left unused for a long time, so I'd have to keep checking
>>>>>>>>> them as well.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not only that, but formats, interfaces, operating systems and
>>>>>>>> codecs or
>>>>>>>> become obsolete change which can complicate matters.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Right, and Beta/VHS players will never become obsolete of 
>>>>>>> course. Oh
>>>>>>> wait, they already are!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> How long did that take? The medium remains intact in any event, much
>>>>>> more reliably then digital formats.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Some of my old Backup DVD's and CD's are unreadable after a few
>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>> kept in temperature stable dry conditions whilst I have home
>>>>>>>> recorded
>>>>>>>> audio and video cassettes that are 30+ years old kept in less than
>>>>>>>> ideal
>>>>>>>> storage that still work perfectly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I still have some Phillips format video tapes. Try finding a player
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> those now! Also some Umatic tapes. You can find players for those,
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> it would be hard to justify the cost!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Try finding a working Zip disk reader,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have several; read and write
>>>>>
>>>>>> floptical or or 2.88mb floppy disk drive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But one thing you should remember is that audio and video data
>>>>>>> files are
>>>>>>> often recoverable where program files would not be. One bit error
>>>>>>> on a
>>>>>>> program and it's toast.
>>>>
>>>> As a software developer, I can tell you that this is absolutely not
>>>> absolutely true.  Flipping one bit *could* be fatal to an executable,
>>>> or it could have little to no effect.  Theoretically, it could even
>>>> improve the program, though I don't recommend random bit-flipping as
>>>> any sort of bug-fix strategy.
>>>>
>>>> All this talk of obsolete formats reminded me that I have some old
>>>> Travan TR-1 backup tapes.  One is still in its wrapper, so I know that
>>>> has no value, two others are marked as full backups from 1998, and
>>>> another three are opened but unlabeled.  I have no idea what's on
>>>> these, other than whatever I felt 19 years ago was worth backing 
>>>> up.  I
>>>> also don't know where the drive is, if I still have it.  I just 
>>>> have to
>>>> assume that anything I haven't wanted in that long is probably not
>>>> worth much trouble trying to recover.  Each tape holds an amazing 
>>>> 400MB
>>>> (800MB compressed with their rather optimistic estimate of 
>>>> compression).
>>>>
>>>> I also recently brought back to life an old PC that uses EIDE drives.
>>>> My current desktop won't even take those, only having SATA connectors.
>>>> I have very limited options getting data from the one to the other.
>>>
>>> not really, just put a card in to give you ide ports, or use an IDE to
>>> SATA adapter. or you could use a docking station
>>> http://tinyurl.com/kwhx75u
>
> I do have an adapter, so I can plug in one EIDE drive at a time, and
> transfer whatever seems to be of value to the newer machine's drive, or
> to a separate backup.  That's probably what I'll do, though I also have
> a crossover cable, so with the right setup I could transfer between the
> machines.  I don't think any of this is worth the cost and trouble of
> getting a new controller card.
>
>>>> Here again the storage limits are laughable in today's terms.  The
>>>> biggest EIDE drive I have is 80GB,
>>>
>>> I have 120Gb, 80Gb, 40Gb, and even a 10GB. I also have a 25mb HD that
>>> still works!
>
> How is it worth running tiny hard drives 

I don't use them per se, I just have them! I have difficulty getting rid 
of things. I believe it's called hoarding. however, they are useful if I 
want to store files of a particular kind together for any reason, eg 
video clips. it's easy just to plug in that drive as I have bays set up 
in the PC for SATA and IDE drives. although, drives that small I would 
rarely use, and as you say below, I could just use a flash drive with 
files in folders. I guess technology has now overtaken me.

> when you can put it all on a
> flash drive for little cost, no moving parts, and easy connection to
> any modern machine?

I guess I just don't trust them too much. experience with eproms has 
taught me how easily you can lose all your data with no hope of recovery

>
>> I have two or three 40mb drives that still work. One MFM/RLL drive in a
>> portable that still works too but each time I fire it up I'm afraid it
>> will be it's last. Those old things don't fill you with much confidence
>> as they chug away.
>>
>> The dodgiest drive still in regular use is in an old Compaq Armada which
>> I use with my EPROMmer and for diagnostics on older vehicles.
>>
>> It's drive developed bad sectors 10+ years ago and I simply partitioned
>> them out as a temporary measure and it's remained that way since.
>
> That's another point against the old, small-capacity drives.  I was a
> bit relieved that all my old drives even run.  Once I get the good data
> off them, I'll probably clear them and either give or throw them away.

never had a drive fail. I've got an old Quantum fireball 500mb still 
going strong. ( ok, bring in the men in white coats now ) I guess a lot 
depends on how much drives are used tho

>
>>>> while I have a 256GB thumb drive.
>>>>
>>>> I also still have a few 3.5" floppies ("stiffies")
>>>
>>> none of that dirty talk here, thank you! lol.
>>>
>>>> , which I could read
>>>> on the old machine, and then transfer to the new if there's any value
>>>> to it.  That's a big "if".
>>>
>>> I still have a 3.5 floppy drive in the current machine. even have a
>>> 5.25" drive in one PC
>>>
>>
>> I have a separate machine for that which also has a 3.5" and 5.25"
>> floppy. I've used it to recover and write floppies for other 8 bit
>> computers (like a TRS-80 model 1 for instance).
>
> You wouldn't happen to have a paper tape reader as well, would you?
>
>>>>   Even all these old CDs I have for software
>>>> are of little likely value, since anything coming on a CD probably 
>>>> runs
>>>> on an obsolete OS.  There are a few backups mixed in with those, but
>>>> those are also likely worthless, as I'd copy from one hard drive to
>>>> another when upgrading.


-- 
"Multiculturanism equals white ethnocide"
http://thereligionofpeace.com
http://www.barenakedislam.com/
http://www.siotw.org

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#59244

On 03/20/2017 06:42 PM, felix wrote:
> On Tuesday, 21 Mar 2017 7:18 AM, BruceS wrote:
>> On 03/19/2017 09:03 PM, Clocky wrote:
>>> On 20/03/2017 10:42 AM, felix wrote:
<with snippage; I hope I got the attributions righ>
>>>> I have 120Gb, 80Gb, 40Gb, and even a 10GB. I also have a 25mb HD that
>>>> still works!
>>
>> How is it worth running tiny hard drives
>
> I don't use them per se, I just have them! I have difficulty getting rid
> of things. I believe it's called hoarding. however, they are useful if I
> want to store files of a particular kind together for any reason, eg
> video clips. it's easy just to plug in that drive as I have bays set up
> in the PC for SATA and IDE drives. although, drives that small I would
> rarely use, and as you say below, I could just use a flash drive with
> files in folders. I guess technology has now overtaken me.
>
>> when you can put it all on a
>> flash drive for little cost, no moving parts, and easy connection to
>> any modern machine?
>
> I guess I just don't trust them too much. experience with eproms has
> taught me how easily you can lose all your data with no hope of recovery

I think the trick there is to have multiple backups, and occasionally 
checking them.  Not that I'm very good about even having one backup. 
That's another thing I'm starting on.  I'm getting all my various data 
sources organized, figuring out which have the most recent version of 
anything with multiple copies, and will have a single canonical source, 
with at least one identical backup of that source.

>>> I have two or three 40mb drives that still work. One MFM/RLL drive in a
>>> portable that still works too but each time I fire it up I'm afraid it
>>> will be it's last. Those old things don't fill you with much confidence
>>> as they chug away.
>>>
>>> The dodgiest drive still in regular use is in an old Compaq Armada which
>>> I use with my EPROMmer and for diagnostics on older vehicles.
>>>
>>> It's drive developed bad sectors 10+ years ago and I simply partitioned
>>> them out as a temporary measure and it's remained that way since.
>>
>> That's another point against the old, small-capacity drives.  I was a
>> bit relieved that all my old drives even run.  Once I get the good data
>> off them, I'll probably clear them and either give or throw them away.
>
> never had a drive fail. I've got an old Quantum fireball 500mb still
> going strong. ( ok, bring in the men in white coats now ) I guess a lot
> depends on how much drives are used tho

The tech has gotten a lot better over the years, so now the biggest by 
far threat is not drive failure but human failure or intentional damage.

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#59242

On 21/03/2017 7:18 AM, BruceS wrote:
> You wouldn't happen to have a paper tape reader as well, would you?

Had an old Teletype with tape punch until a decade ago before it finally 
went to the tip! Probably worth something now :-(
Think I had a Siemens stand alone punch at one time as well :-)

Trevor.

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#59245

On 03/21/2017 01:50 AM, Trevor wrote:
> On 21/03/2017 7:18 AM, BruceS wrote:
>> You wouldn't happen to have a paper tape reader as well, would you?
>
> Had an old Teletype with tape punch until a decade ago before it finally
> went to the tip! Probably worth something now :-(
> Think I had a Siemens stand alone punch at one time as well :-)

And there's one of the slightly more rational impulses behind my
hesitation to discard old junk---one day it could be worth something!
I have to tell myself that by throwing away some piece of junk, I'm
helping some hoarder somewhere gain value for his own equivalent piece
of junk by raising its scarcity index.  I've given away a lot of stuff
by putting it at the street with a "free" sign, and I know some people
collect that stuff not for themselves but for resale.  That's a burden
I must carry.

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#59248

On 22/03/2017 12:31 AM, BruceS wrote:
> On 03/21/2017 01:50 AM, Trevor wrote:
>> On 21/03/2017 7:18 AM, BruceS wrote:
>>> You wouldn't happen to have a paper tape reader as well, would you?
>>
>> Had an old Teletype with tape punch until a decade ago before it finally
>> went to the tip! Probably worth something now :-(
>> Think I had a Siemens stand alone punch at one time as well :-)
>
> And there's one of the slightly more rational impulses behind my
> hesitation to discard old junk---one day it could be worth something!
> I have to tell myself that by throwing away some piece of junk, I'm
> helping some hoarder somewhere gain value for his own equivalent piece
> of junk by raising its scarcity index.  I've given away a lot of stuff
> by putting it at the street with a "free" sign, and I know some people
> collect that stuff not for themselves but for resale.  That's a burden
> I must carry.


I'm a collector of stuff but I also hate clutter so the way I deal with 
that dilemma is that I've allocated a certain space for my collection 
where it is fairly neatly arranged and that's it. If I run out of space 
and obtain something I want to keep, something else has to go.

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