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Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints"

From Alessandro Vesely <vesely@tana.it>
Newsgroups linux.debian.user
Subject Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints"
Date 2019-08-21 17:40 +0200
Message-ID <yxASm-1Nq-1@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References (6 earlier) <yxg7g-5qJ-31@gated-at.bofh.it> <yxgqB-5xv-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <yxiiJ-6J9-5@gated-at.bofh.it> <yxiLL-79M-3@gated-at.bofh.it> <yxjHP-7LB-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
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On Tue 20/Aug/2019 23:11:27 +0200 Michael Stone wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 11:10:08PM +0300, Reco wrote:
>> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 03:45:31PM -0400, Michael Stone wrote:
>>> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 08:39:43PM +0300, Reco wrote:
>>>> Unless a blacklist adds victims by AS number, a change of MTA's IP
>>>> (hence the hosting) and an appropriate DNS reconfiguration is
>>>> sufficient to sidestep it.
>>>
>>> And cause different issues, because you're no longer on an IP with an
>>> established history.
>>
>> A blank slate. There's nothing wrong with it. 
> 
> Except that other anti-spam algorithms take into account how long a
> domain has been around, and how long a specific IP has been in use for
> that domain. (In order to try to counteract spammers doing exactly
> what you're recommending in order to avoid IP based blocklists.)


Normally, change of IPs occurs every time you find a better ISP.


>> Blacklists are called that for a reason, they do not block whole
>> IPv4/IPv6 address space.>
> Sure they do. Even in this thread you've heard people advocate
> blocking entire countries. You seem to be arguing based on some
> particular blacklist implementation without recognizing that other
> recipients use other blacklists, some of which may even have policies
> that you might think are idiotic. If you're trying to send an email to
> someone whose provider implements idiotic policies, your assessment of
> their policies is basically irrelevant. (Though it may eventually
> encourage you to simply stop caring about whether the email gets
> delivered.)


Widely used domains usually adopt policies which grant decent
deliverability.  Hotmail users are obviously happy having every new
contact's message delivered in their spam folder.  I prefer a spam
folder not having to be rummaged through —SA score ≥ 9.


>>> You're also assuming that they're blocking by IP rather than domain,
>>> which is quite bold assumption since the blacklist is a black box and
>>> domain based blacklists most certainly exist.
>>
>> Haven't encountered one yet, but I trust you on this.
> 
> As an example, see https://www.spamhaus.org/dbl/ and "RHSBL"


These lists are used for content inspection.  If a message contains a
link to a bad web site, presumably inviting recipient to click on it,
it is worth blocking it.  That's a somewhat poor technique.  M$
rewrites links so as to redirect them to a local proxy.  Another
approach is to use DNS RPZ.


>>> Or, you're trying to send to someone who's blacklisting broad ranges
>>> of IPs or ASs and you're just wasting your time changing IPs. Nothing
>>> like find that out after going down that road.
>>
>> And that's where "hosting" comes into play. Blacklisting, say, whole
>> Amazon AS is a little extreme, don't you think?
> 
> See above. Also, there are certainly recipients who are more skeptical
> of amazon IPs exactly because they're so easy to spin up. Also, amazon
> themselves will ask questions if you start hopping IPs and asking for
> PTRs on each of them for email delivery.
> 
> Again, each of these things is usually surmountable, but rational
> people eventually have to ask whether it's worth the effort vs
> throwing in the towel and outsourcing to a first tier provider.


It is true that many people turn to Gmail and similar services.  The
reasons why they do so are certainly complex, but I don't think
getting out of blacklists holds a relevant position in the overall
statistic.  I, for one, never had this problem after 20+ years of
running my own mail site.


Best
Ale

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Thread

Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2019-08-19 20:40 +0200
  Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Michael Howard <mike@dewberryfields.co.uk> - 2019-08-19 20:50 +0200
  Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-08-19 22:30 +0200
    Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-08-19 22:50 +0200
      Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Christopher Marlow <debian@cwm030.com> - 2019-08-19 23:10 +0200
        Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-08-19 23:20 +0200
          Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com> - 2019-08-20 13:40 +0200
            Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2019-08-20 14:40 +0200
            Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-08-20 16:50 +0200
              Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-08-20 17:00 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-08-20 17:30 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-08-20 18:20 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com> - 2019-08-20 19:00 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-08-20 19:30 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Alessandro Vesely <vesely@tana.it> - 2019-08-21 16:50 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-08-21 16:50 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-08-21 17:30 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com> - 2019-08-21 19:50 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-08-20 19:30 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com> - 2019-08-20 19:50 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-08-20 20:20 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com> - 2019-08-20 20:50 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-08-20 21:40 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com> - 2019-08-21 19:20 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-08-21 21:10 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2019-08-21 21:40 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-08-21 22:10 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2019-08-21 23:30 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-08-21 23:40 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-08-21 22:10 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2019-08-21 22:20 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" elvis <elvis@dogonfire.com> - 2019-08-20 23:50 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-08-21 02:00 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com> - 2019-08-21 19:30 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" elvis <elvis@dogonfire.com> - 2019-08-23 10:00 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-08-20 22:00 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com> - 2019-08-21 19:50 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2019-08-20 21:20 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com> - 2019-08-21 20:20 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-08-20 19:30 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-08-20 19:50 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-08-20 21:50 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-08-20 22:20 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-08-20 23:20 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Alessandro Vesely <vesely@tana.it> - 2019-08-21 17:40 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-08-21 18:00 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-08-20 20:40 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Dan Clery <dan@savevsgeek.com> - 2019-08-20 21:00 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2019-08-20 21:40 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-08-20 22:10 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2019-08-20 20:50 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" rhkramer@gmail.com - 2019-08-21 19:00 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2019-08-21 20:50 +0200
  Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-08-20 16:20 +0200

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