Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints"

From	Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.user
Subject	Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints"
Date	2019-08-20 22:20 +0200
Message-ID	<yxiLL-79M-3@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References	(5 earlier) <yxef7-4fB-5@gated-at.bofh.it> <yxf1v-4MN-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <yxg7g-5qJ-31@gated-at.bofh.it> <yxgqB-5xv-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <yxiiJ-6J9-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
Organization	linux.* mail to news gateway

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On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 03:45:31PM -0400, Michael Stone wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 08:39:43PM +0300, Reco wrote:
> > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 01:22:27PM -0400, Michael Stone wrote:
> > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 07:14:01PM +0300, Reco wrote:
> > > > So it boils down to "MTA needs care on a regular basis" and "some
> > > > blacklist can add your MTA for no good reason". First one is universal
> > > > (applies to any Internet-facing service), second one can be beat with a
> > > > creative use of hosting. Also, https://mxtoolbox.com. A non-free
> > > > service, but a useful one.
> > > 
> > > Way to oversimplify, and "creative use of hosting" basically means
> > > "hope and pray". It's also not actually true that there's hosting
> > > magic which makes you immune to blacklist stupidity unless your
> > > hosting is gmail or something equally too large to block.
> > 
> > Unless a blacklist adds victims by AS number, a change of MTA's IP
> > (hence the hosting) and an appropriate DNS reconfiguration is
> > sufficient to sidestep it.
> 
> And cause different issues, because you're no longer on an IP with an
> established history.

A blank slate. There's nothing wrong with it. Blacklists are called that
for a reason, they do not block whole IPv4/IPv6 address space.


> You're also assuming that they're blocking by IP rather than domain,
> which is quite bold assumption since the blacklist is a black box and
> domain based blacklists most certainly exist.  That said, I have in
> the past configured specific domains to recieve email from specific
> IPs because they arbitrarily stopped accepting mail from other IPs.

Haven't encountered one yet, but I trust you on this.


> > Of course, one can get an already blacklisted IP, so a certain amount of
> > "hope and pray" applies here.
> 
> Or, you're trying to send to someone who's blacklisting broad ranges
> of IPs or ASs and you're just wasting your time changing IPs. Nothing
> like find that out after going down that road.

And that's where "hosting" comes into play. Blacklisting, say, whole
Amazon AS is a little extreme, don't you think?


> > > In my experience with the younger generation, they already don't
> > > consider email a primary means of communication except within a closed
> > > environment like a school.
> > 
> > That's something I agree with. Still, I propose to wait until
> > post-Generation Z gets their first job.
> 
> Why? Current young working age people are alredy far less invested in
> email than their older peers. This isn't changing as they continue to
> work.

I disagree. "We do things this way because we got used to it" still
holds some weight.

> If anything, they're pushing companies away from using email as
> a primary means of internal communication.

But they lack weight to do so effectively yet. Certain positions come
with an age.


> > > In business the trend is increasingly toward outsourcing email to a
> > > large cloud provider (e.g., MS/outlook) so a future in which
> > > businesses mainly communicate between a small number of very large
> > > providers is not all that remote.
> > 
> > The trend is here, sure, as long as you consider small business.
> > Large one - not so much.
> 
> Maybe not ten years ago, but CIOs need to now have a good answer to why *not* outsource email.

Privacy of internal communications? Risk limiting? A good CIO should
always have pro- and contra- arguments for any proposition.


> For the most part, large businesses that aren't IT providers don't
> particularly want to manage email servers. It might be hard for them
> to change their existing infrastructure, but in my experience it's
> something they're definitely looking at.

I'll believe it then I'll see it.

Reco

Thread

Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2019-08-19 20:40 +0200
  Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Michael Howard <mike@dewberryfields.co.uk> - 2019-08-19 20:50 +0200
  Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-08-19 22:30 +0200
    Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-08-19 22:50 +0200
      Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Christopher Marlow <debian@cwm030.com> - 2019-08-19 23:10 +0200
        Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-08-19 23:20 +0200
          Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com> - 2019-08-20 13:40 +0200
            Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2019-08-20 14:40 +0200
            Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-08-20 16:50 +0200
              Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-08-20 17:00 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-08-20 17:30 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-08-20 18:20 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com> - 2019-08-20 19:00 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-08-20 19:30 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Alessandro Vesely <vesely@tana.it> - 2019-08-21 16:50 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-08-21 16:50 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-08-21 17:30 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com> - 2019-08-21 19:50 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-08-20 19:30 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com> - 2019-08-20 19:50 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-08-20 20:20 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com> - 2019-08-20 20:50 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-08-20 21:40 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com> - 2019-08-21 19:20 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-08-21 21:10 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2019-08-21 21:40 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-08-21 22:10 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2019-08-21 23:30 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-08-21 23:40 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-08-21 22:10 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2019-08-21 22:20 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" elvis <elvis@dogonfire.com> - 2019-08-20 23:50 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-08-21 02:00 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com> - 2019-08-21 19:30 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" elvis <elvis@dogonfire.com> - 2019-08-23 10:00 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-08-20 22:00 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com> - 2019-08-21 19:50 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2019-08-20 21:20 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com> - 2019-08-21 20:20 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-08-20 19:30 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-08-20 19:50 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-08-20 21:50 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-08-20 22:20 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-08-20 23:20 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Alessandro Vesely <vesely@tana.it> - 2019-08-21 17:40 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-08-21 18:00 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-08-20 20:40 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Dan Clery <dan@savevsgeek.com> - 2019-08-20 21:00 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2019-08-20 21:40 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-08-20 22:10 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2019-08-20 20:50 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" rhkramer@gmail.com - 2019-08-21 19:00 +0200
                Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2019-08-21 20:50 +0200
  Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints" mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-08-20 16:20 +0200

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