Re: C23 (C2x) changes

From	David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: C23 (C2x) changes
Date	2021-10-07 11:06 +0200
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<sjmdat$j79$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	<si99fr$ma4$1@dont-email.me> <86r1cyquwk.fsf@linuxsc.com> <sjkl48$1aun$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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On 06/10/2021 19:07, Guillaume wrote:
> Le 06/10/2021 à 13:01, Tim Rentsch a écrit :
>> Mehdi Amini <atorrses@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> It seems these are some of changes for C23(C2x) standard taken from
>>> draft documents:
>>>
>>> https://en.cppreference.com/w/c/23
>>> https://thephd.dev/c-the-improvements-june-september-virtual-c-meeting
>>>
>>> What do you think of changes ?
>>
>> My impression is that as time goes on C is looking more and more like
>> C++ and less and less like C.  That's a bad trend.
> 
> It's really far from it.
> 
> What makes you say that is probably that C borrows some "features" from
> C++ at each new revision, but it's not a new trend.
> 
> The "features" it borrows from C++ are nothing that inherently makes C++
> though, and IMO the majority of them are just things that were
> long-awaited in C, without breaking the essence of C at all, and there's
> no good reason to reinvent the wheel if those are already defined in C++.
> 

That is absolutely the case, as I see it.  There are several good
reasons for it.  The C committee don't like adding new things to the
language unless they are /really/ sure they are a good idea.  One way to
do that is to look at the practice from C++.  Another is to look at
current C implementations with extensions - tools like gcc and clang
have a long history of letting some features flow between C and C++, if
they can be done without conflict.  So in many cases, stretching back to
C99, the C committee have merely standardised C++ features that gcc had
already supported in C compilation.  Low risk, low effort, and useful in
practice - what's not to like?

There are some people who stubbornly insist that C and C++ are
completely separate, and should progress independently.  In reality,
mixes occur on a regular basis.  Libraries or code gets written in C and
used in C++ projects - it's vital that most of what could reasonably be
expected to be in a C header, should also be valid and usable with C++
(possibly with an extern "C" wrapper).  Real-world projects can often
start as C, and migrate towards C++ for new code - or they can be
started in C++ and borrow old C code.  Toolchains support both
languages, and arbitrary differences just means more work.  The same
applies to things like syntax highlighting editors.  And in the MSVC
world, people writing C code generally use the C++ compiler because it
is (or has traditionally been) better than compiling as C.

> With that said, from the C++ perspective, Bjarne Stroustrup (and
> probably followed by the C++ committee) has always been, and still is, a
> vehement proponent of fusing C into C++, making it a strict subset of
> C++, instead of the current situation, with two different languages. Now
> what kind of influence the C++ committee has over the C committee, I do
> not know. I guess the main reason for including some C++ features into C
> is the one I stated above: if C is going to get new features that are
> similar to some that already exist in C++, why make them different and
> further make the two languages divergent for no good reason?
> 
> Now, feel free to give relevant examples of C++ features that found
> their way into C and which you think have no place there, with a
> rationale. I'm all ears.
> 

One proposal that I can think of is lambdas - there have been proposals
to add these to C, and these really don't seem a good fit to me.  One
source of many of these ideas is Jens Gustedt, who is one of the few C
standards committee members who has a significant public internet
presence with his blog, and is quite prolific with his ideas and
proposals.  Some of his ideas come from C++, others are new to both
languages.  (Most C committee members are more anonymous, at least
compared to the C++ committee.  That is quite appropriate for a language
that changes slowly and values stability so highly.)  Of course Jens is
free to bring up his ideas - that does not mean that they will be
accepted by the committee as a whole.

As to features that C has already copied from C++, rather than just
proposals, which don't fit the style and philosophy of C - I can't think
of any off-hand.  Tim will have to give examples himself.

Thread

C23 (C2x) changes Mehdi Amini <atorrses@gmail.com> - 2021-09-20 10:54 +0430
  Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-20 09:35 +0200
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Mehdi Amini <atorrses@gmail.com> - 2021-09-21 11:01 +0430
  Re: C23 (C2x) changes John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2021-09-20 10:41 -0500
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-20 18:17 +0200
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-20 18:55 +0100
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-09-20 18:21 +0000
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-20 21:39 +0200
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-20 21:07 +0100
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-20 22:59 +0200
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-20 22:29 +0100
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-20 17:43 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-21 17:56 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-21 18:05 +0100
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-21 11:42 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-22 11:37 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-22 11:55 +0100
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-22 14:21 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-22 13:58 +0100
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Ian Pilcher <arequipeno@gmail.com> - 2021-09-22 12:02 -0500
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-09-22 17:19 +0000
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-20 23:05 +0100
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-09-20 22:47 +0000
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-09-20 22:58 +0000
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-02 07:16 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-02 15:15 +0000
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-20 17:45 -0700
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2021-09-27 17:15 +0200
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-09-27 17:38 +0100
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2021-09-27 23:18 +0200
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2021-09-28 13:53 +0000
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-02 08:07 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-02 15:18 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-02 15:04 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-03 01:58 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-02 22:06 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-03 10:43 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-03 13:30 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-04 05:04 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-03 23:24 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-04 06:54 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-04 09:58 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-04 15:52 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-04 10:45 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-04 20:30 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-06 03:57 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-06 12:27 +0000
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-29 03:38 +0000
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-15 11:35 +0100
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-10-15 18:27 +0000
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-15 20:08 +0100
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-10-15 19:20 +0000
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-15 21:50 +0100
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de> - 2021-10-03 09:43 +0200
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-10-03 18:53 +0200
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-03 13:55 -0700
  Re: C23 (C2x) changes William Ahern <william@25thandClement.com> - 2021-09-21 22:57 -0700
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-02 08:55 -0700
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-02 16:36 +0000
  Re: C23 (C2x) changes Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-09-22 20:27 +0200
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2021-09-22 22:25 +0200
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-22 14:05 -0700
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-22 23:24 +0100
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-09-22 18:49 -0700
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-09-23 18:47 +0200
  Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) William Ahern <william@25thandClement.com> - 2021-09-23 21:11 -0700
    Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-24 08:51 +0200
      Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2021-09-24 09:30 +0200
    Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-24 07:52 +0000
      Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2021-09-24 12:32 +0200
        Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-24 10:49 +0000
          Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2021-09-24 14:46 +0200
      Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-09-24 18:14 +0200
        Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-25 01:00 +0000
          Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2021-09-25 07:44 +0200
            Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-25 11:28 +0000
            Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2021-09-28 10:56 +0000
          Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-09-25 09:48 +0200
            Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-25 11:30 +0000
              Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2021-09-25 20:49 +0000
                Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-26 00:04 +0000
              Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-09-26 06:56 +0200
  Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-09-27 10:15 -0700
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-27 11:15 -0700
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-27 22:11 +0200
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-09-27 14:20 -0700
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-09-27 14:31 -0700
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Mehdi Amini <atorrses@gmail.com> - 2021-09-28 10:43 +0330
  Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-06 04:01 -0700
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-10-06 04:42 -0700
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-29 04:04 -0700
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-29 16:34 +0200
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-10-06 19:07 +0200
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-07 11:06 +0200
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-10-07 19:31 +0200
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-07 22:14 +0200
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-10-08 06:18 -0700
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-10-08 06:21 -0700
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-29 04:01 -0700
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-15 12:59 +0200
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2021-10-15 16:50 +0000
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-16 07:51 +0200
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-10-16 11:50 -0700
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-16 21:28 +0200
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2021-10-17 17:18 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-17 20:00 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-17 19:17 +0100
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-18 06:49 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-18 11:23 +0100
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-18 14:09 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-21 01:07 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-21 01:02 +0000
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-10-16 21:28 +0200
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-17 06:04 +0200
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2021-10-17 19:35 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-17 20:01 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-10-17 14:15 -0700
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-21 01:02 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-21 13:15 +0200

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