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Groups > comp.lang.c > #162799
| From | Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.c |
| Subject | Re: C23 (C2x) changes |
| Date | 2021-09-21 11:42 -0700 |
| Organization | None to speak of |
| Message-ID | <87pmt1ojmu.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> (permalink) |
| References | (5 earlier) <siaplj$r7d$1@dont-email.me> <siasoc$m4t$1@dont-email.me> <siaufp$mhq$1@dont-email.me> <sicvbp$m4m$1@dont-email.me> <sid3cs$ls5$1@dont-email.me> |
Bart <bc@freeuk.com> writes:
> On 21/09/2021 16:56, David Brown wrote:
[...]
> If your code is compiled by someone else, then you don't know what
> compiler they will use and which options.
An excellent reason to avoid writing code whose behavior may be
undefined.
[...]
> In the case of my language, no actual overflow occurs, since I'm using
> 64-bit intermediates even with int32 types. So the results are
> correct, as they are in range by the time the result is stored into
> the 32-bit destination.
Good for you. C doesn't do that.
[...]
> You don't necessarily need to use 64-bit types; just so long as
> calculations are done as 64 bits. C's sticking with 32 bits means
> massively more opportunities for overflow which would be considerably
> rarer with 64 bits.
Presumably your language does *something* on overflow when the user
actually uses 64-bit types. (I'm not asking what that is.)
C did not stick with 32 bits. Most C implementations did (for reasons
I've discussed before). I've used C compilers with 64-bit int.
[...]
>> Unsigned integer arithmetic is defined differently in C. It's a
>> design
>> decision.
>
> Do you have a link to say that this is what the designers had in mind
> when they added unsigned integers? Because it sounds more like this
> modulo business was conveniently defined much later on.
I haven't found one. I believe it was deliberate, but I'm not certain.
Given that it's now unambiguously defined that way, it doesn't matter
much to me whether it was deliberate or not.
>> (Often I'd prefer unsigned integers overflow to be undefined
>> too, as overflow is usually a bug in the code.
>
> Exactly. Sometimes wraparound is intentional, but on both signed and
> unsigned. And it can be unintentional - on both.
>
>> But it is useful to have
>> support for modulo arithmetic in a language, and supporting both
>> flavours of unsigned types would mean a more sophisticated type system.)
>> What do you see as the practical uses of having wrapping in signed
>> integers? Can you give /real/ code in which it is necessary to get the
>> correct answer?
>
> The practical use is not having to care. Usually the numbers will sort
> themselves out in the same way they do for unsigned.
Oh? If you have a counter whose current value is UINT_MAX and you
increment it, it goes to 0. How does that sort itself out?
You just have to be aware of how signed and unsigned types work.
> And actually, the real uses are not up to me; my language says
> wrapping signed integers is well-defined; so does the target
> hardware. But if I happen to be using intermediate C, now suddenly it
> can screw everything up.
>
> Somebody using my language will need see the behaviour that is promised.
Right. If your source language and your target language have
different semantics, you'll need to do some extra work to make sure
that the resulting code has the desired behavior. I sympathize
with your difficulties, but C is not going to change to meet your
requirements no matter how much you complain.
[...]
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
Working, but not speaking, for Philips
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */
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C23 (C2x) changes Mehdi Amini <atorrses@gmail.com> - 2021-09-20 10:54 +0430
Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-20 09:35 +0200
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Mehdi Amini <atorrses@gmail.com> - 2021-09-21 11:01 +0430
Re: C23 (C2x) changes John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2021-09-20 10:41 -0500
Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-20 18:17 +0200
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-20 18:55 +0100
Re: C23 (C2x) changes scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-09-20 18:21 +0000
Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-20 21:39 +0200
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-20 21:07 +0100
Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-20 22:59 +0200
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-20 22:29 +0100
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-20 17:43 -0700
Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-21 17:56 +0200
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-21 18:05 +0100
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-21 11:42 -0700
Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-22 11:37 +0200
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-22 11:55 +0100
Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-22 14:21 +0200
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-22 13:58 +0100
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Ian Pilcher <arequipeno@gmail.com> - 2021-09-22 12:02 -0500
Re: C23 (C2x) changes scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-09-22 17:19 +0000
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-20 23:05 +0100
Re: C23 (C2x) changes scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-09-20 22:47 +0000
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-09-20 22:58 +0000
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-02 07:16 -0700
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-02 15:15 +0000
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-20 17:45 -0700
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2021-09-27 17:15 +0200
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-09-27 17:38 +0100
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2021-09-27 23:18 +0200
Re: C23 (C2x) changes antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2021-09-28 13:53 +0000
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-02 08:07 -0700
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-02 15:18 +0000
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-02 15:04 -0700
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-03 01:58 +0000
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-02 22:06 -0700
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-03 10:43 +0000
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-03 13:30 -0700
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-04 05:04 +0000
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-03 23:24 -0700
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-04 06:54 +0000
Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-04 09:58 +0200
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-04 15:52 +0000
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-04 10:45 -0700
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-04 20:30 +0000
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-06 03:57 -0700
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-06 12:27 +0000
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-29 03:38 +0000
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-15 11:35 +0100
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-10-15 18:27 +0000
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-15 20:08 +0100
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-10-15 19:20 +0000
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-15 21:50 +0100
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de> - 2021-10-03 09:43 +0200
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-10-03 18:53 +0200
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-03 13:55 -0700
Re: C23 (C2x) changes William Ahern <william@25thandClement.com> - 2021-09-21 22:57 -0700
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-02 08:55 -0700
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-02 16:36 +0000
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-09-22 20:27 +0200
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2021-09-22 22:25 +0200
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-22 14:05 -0700
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-22 23:24 +0100
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-09-22 18:49 -0700
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-09-23 18:47 +0200
Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) William Ahern <william@25thandClement.com> - 2021-09-23 21:11 -0700
Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-24 08:51 +0200
Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2021-09-24 09:30 +0200
Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-24 07:52 +0000
Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2021-09-24 12:32 +0200
Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-24 10:49 +0000
Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2021-09-24 14:46 +0200
Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-09-24 18:14 +0200
Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-25 01:00 +0000
Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2021-09-25 07:44 +0200
Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-25 11:28 +0000
Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2021-09-28 10:56 +0000
Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-09-25 09:48 +0200
Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-25 11:30 +0000
Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2021-09-25 20:49 +0000
Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-26 00:04 +0000
Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-09-26 06:56 +0200
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-09-27 10:15 -0700
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-27 11:15 -0700
Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-27 22:11 +0200
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-09-27 14:20 -0700
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-09-27 14:31 -0700
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Mehdi Amini <atorrses@gmail.com> - 2021-09-28 10:43 +0330
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-06 04:01 -0700
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-10-06 04:42 -0700
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-29 04:04 -0700
Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-29 16:34 +0200
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-10-06 19:07 +0200
Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-07 11:06 +0200
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-10-07 19:31 +0200
Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-07 22:14 +0200
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-10-08 06:18 -0700
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-10-08 06:21 -0700
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-29 04:01 -0700
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-15 12:59 +0200
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2021-10-15 16:50 +0000
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-16 07:51 +0200
Re: C23 (C2x) changes "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-10-16 11:50 -0700
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-16 21:28 +0200
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2021-10-17 17:18 +0000
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-17 20:00 +0200
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-17 19:17 +0100
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-18 06:49 +0200
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-18 11:23 +0100
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-18 14:09 +0200
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-21 01:07 +0000
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-21 01:02 +0000
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-10-16 21:28 +0200
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-17 06:04 +0200
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2021-10-17 19:35 +0200
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-17 20:01 +0200
Re: C23 (C2x) changes "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-10-17 14:15 -0700
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-21 01:02 +0000
Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-21 13:15 +0200
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