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Re: C23 (C2x) changes

From Manfred <noname@add.invalid>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: C23 (C2x) changes
Date 2021-09-27 23:18 +0200
Organization Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID <sitcfp$1fgs$1@gioia.aioe.org> (permalink)
References (1 earlier) <siaa3b$t76$1@dont-email.me> <siac7m$8r0$1@dont-email.me> <siahul$tb8$1@dont-email.me> <sisn5m$ni6$1@gioia.aioe.org> <87y27it1mo.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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On 9/27/2021 6:38 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> Manfred <noname@add.invalid> writes:
> 
>> On 9/20/2021 7:55 PM, Bart wrote:
> 
>>> Of course it makes perfect sense to have a pile of 4294967295 apples,
>>> add another apple to the pile, and suddenly end up with 0 apples!
>>> Meanwhile, someone could remove that extra apple from the pile of
>>> -2147483648, to restore the original 2147483647, however that's too
>>> late: the overflow police have already been, and will do so again
>>> even when it becomes legal.
>>>
>>
>> It's all about modeling a problem domain.
>> In mathematics, /integer/ arithmetic (the one you use a.o. to add and
>> subtract things) is /signed/ (for any serious work, at least).  The
>> tool that C offers to model this domain is signed integers - with the
>> unavoidable limitations of limited size.
>>
>> Unsigned integers are the tool that C offers for /binary/
>> arithmetic. In this context wrapping is one of the features that makes
>> them useful.
> 
> Some mathematics concerns the natural numbers.  Unsigned integer types
> would be an entirely natural (no pun intended) choice for these cases.
> 

True, and in fact, while writing the post natural numbers came to mind 
as well; for example, in a simple counter unsigned int makes perfect sense.

However, I was following up at Bart's post about what's the point of 
adding an apple to a pile of 4294967295 apples and end up with nothing, 
which is understandably disappointing, since stocking up that pile of 
apples probably took a considerable amount of work...

A couple of considerations:
- How common is the need to model math that is strictly about natural 
numbers compared to the need for integer math? (this is not a rhetorical 
question, I'm genuinely curious).
It could also be argued that after all natural numbers can be handled 
using signed integers, as long as in the transition from theoretical 
analysis to practical analysis, the limitation of (2^31-1) is not that 
different from the limitation of (2^32-1)

- more relevant, IMO: the main difference between signed and unsigned 
types is that in the latter case all bits are digits, i.e. they 
constitute a homogeneous set, which makes them specifically useful for 
binary arithmetic (which justifies the difference in semantics, in my view).

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Thread

C23 (C2x) changes Mehdi Amini <atorrses@gmail.com> - 2021-09-20 10:54 +0430
  Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-20 09:35 +0200
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Mehdi Amini <atorrses@gmail.com> - 2021-09-21 11:01 +0430
  Re: C23 (C2x) changes John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2021-09-20 10:41 -0500
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-20 18:17 +0200
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-20 18:55 +0100
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-09-20 18:21 +0000
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-20 21:39 +0200
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-20 21:07 +0100
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-20 22:59 +0200
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-20 22:29 +0100
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-20 17:43 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-21 17:56 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-21 18:05 +0100
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-21 11:42 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-22 11:37 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-22 11:55 +0100
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-22 14:21 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-22 13:58 +0100
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Ian Pilcher <arequipeno@gmail.com> - 2021-09-22 12:02 -0500
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-09-22 17:19 +0000
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-20 23:05 +0100
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-09-20 22:47 +0000
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-09-20 22:58 +0000
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-02 07:16 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-02 15:15 +0000
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-20 17:45 -0700
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2021-09-27 17:15 +0200
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-09-27 17:38 +0100
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2021-09-27 23:18 +0200
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2021-09-28 13:53 +0000
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-02 08:07 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-02 15:18 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-02 15:04 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-03 01:58 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-02 22:06 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-03 10:43 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-03 13:30 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-04 05:04 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-03 23:24 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-04 06:54 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-04 09:58 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-04 15:52 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-04 10:45 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-04 20:30 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-06 03:57 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-06 12:27 +0000
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-29 03:38 +0000
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-15 11:35 +0100
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-10-15 18:27 +0000
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-15 20:08 +0100
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-10-15 19:20 +0000
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-15 21:50 +0100
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de> - 2021-10-03 09:43 +0200
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-10-03 18:53 +0200
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-03 13:55 -0700
  Re: C23 (C2x) changes William Ahern <william@25thandClement.com> - 2021-09-21 22:57 -0700
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-02 08:55 -0700
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-02 16:36 +0000
  Re: C23 (C2x) changes Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-09-22 20:27 +0200
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2021-09-22 22:25 +0200
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-22 14:05 -0700
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-22 23:24 +0100
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-09-22 18:49 -0700
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-09-23 18:47 +0200
  Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) William Ahern <william@25thandClement.com> - 2021-09-23 21:11 -0700
    Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-24 08:51 +0200
      Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2021-09-24 09:30 +0200
    Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-24 07:52 +0000
      Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2021-09-24 12:32 +0200
        Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-24 10:49 +0000
          Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2021-09-24 14:46 +0200
      Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-09-24 18:14 +0200
        Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-25 01:00 +0000
          Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2021-09-25 07:44 +0200
            Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-25 11:28 +0000
            Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2021-09-28 10:56 +0000
          Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-09-25 09:48 +0200
            Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-25 11:30 +0000
              Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2021-09-25 20:49 +0000
                Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-26 00:04 +0000
              Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-09-26 06:56 +0200
  Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-09-27 10:15 -0700
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-27 11:15 -0700
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-27 22:11 +0200
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-09-27 14:20 -0700
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-09-27 14:31 -0700
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Mehdi Amini <atorrses@gmail.com> - 2021-09-28 10:43 +0330
  Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-06 04:01 -0700
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-10-06 04:42 -0700
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-29 04:04 -0700
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-29 16:34 +0200
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-10-06 19:07 +0200
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-07 11:06 +0200
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-10-07 19:31 +0200
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-07 22:14 +0200
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-10-08 06:18 -0700
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-10-08 06:21 -0700
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-29 04:01 -0700
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-15 12:59 +0200
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2021-10-15 16:50 +0000
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-16 07:51 +0200
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-10-16 11:50 -0700
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-16 21:28 +0200
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2021-10-17 17:18 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-17 20:00 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-17 19:17 +0100
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-18 06:49 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-18 11:23 +0100
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-18 14:09 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-21 01:07 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-21 01:02 +0000
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-10-16 21:28 +0200
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-17 06:04 +0200
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2021-10-17 19:35 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-17 20:01 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-10-17 14:15 -0700
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-21 01:02 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-21 13:15 +0200

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