Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.lang.c > #162798

Re: C23 (C2x) changes

From Bart <bc@freeuk.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: C23 (C2x) changes
Date 2021-09-21 18:05 +0100
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <sid3cs$ls5$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (4 earlier) <siao15$qbr$1@dont-email.me> <siaplj$r7d$1@dont-email.me> <siasoc$m4t$1@dont-email.me> <siaufp$mhq$1@dont-email.me> <sicvbp$m4m$1@dont-email.me>

Show all headers | View raw

On 21/09/2021 16:56, David Brown wrote:
> On 20/09/2021 23:29, Bart wrote:
>> On 20/09/2021 21:59, David Brown wrote:

>> Except no compiler seems to do that (of the 7 I tried on Windows) except
>> gcc. So is this just for the benefit of one or two compilers?
>>
> 
> There are perhaps half a dozen serious C compilers that have Windows
> versions, and a few more that are *nix only.  gcc, clang, MSVC, icc are
> the main ones.

clang and MSVC failed to do that optimisation. (I think icc did, but 
only on godbolt.) Plus four other compilers.



> Of course.  The compiler can do anything here, including print a message
> suggesting the programmer reads a beginner's book on C - either at
> compile time, or at run time.  My preference (and I'm disappointed not
> to see this without adding a "const" to "b") would be a warning message
> about the overflow.
> 
> Adding "-fsanitize=undefined" to gcc (or clang) gives a run-time error.

If your code is compiled by someone else, then you don't know what 
compiler they will use and which options.

>> (BTW if I run the equivalent in my language, with the same numbers, then
>> I always get both pairs identical. That's because my types are 64 bits.
>> But even if I change them to 32 bits, I still get the same results.
>>
> 
> I fail to see the great appeal in consistently getting incorrect
> results.  I'd rather get a warning about the bug in the code.

In the case of my language, no actual overflow occurs, since I'm using 
64-bit intermediates even with int32 types. So the results are correct, 
as they are in range by the time the result is stored into the 32-bit 
destination.


> (On the other hand, I /do/ see the appeal of using 64-bit types on
> 64-bit systems.)

You don't necessarily need to use 64-bit types; just so long as 
calculations are done as 64 bits. C's sticking with 32 bits means 
massively more opportunities for overflow which would be considerably 
rarer with 64 bits.

>> So, a cop-out. Just define similar behaviour with signed values.
>>
> 
> Unsigned integer arithmetic is defined differently in C.  It's a design
> decision.

Do you have a link to say that this is what the designers had in mind 
when they added unsigned integers? Because it sounds more like this 
modulo business was conveniently defined much later on.


> (Often I'd prefer unsigned integers overflow to be undefined
> too, as overflow is usually a bug in the code.

Exactly. Sometimes wraparound is intentional, but on both signed and 
unsigned. And it can be unintentional - on both.

> But it is useful to have
> support for modulo arithmetic in a language, and supporting both
> flavours of unsigned types would mean a more sophisticated type system.)
> 
> What do you see as the practical uses of having wrapping in signed
> integers?  Can you give /real/ code in which it is necessary to get the
> correct answer?

The practical use is not having to care. Usually the numbers will sort 
themselves out in the same way they do for unsigned.

And actually, the real uses are not up to me; my language says wrapping 
signed integers is well-defined; so does the target hardware. But if I 
happen to be using intermediate C, now suddenly it can screw everything up.

Somebody using my language will need see the behaviour that is promised.

If any overflow is inadvertent, and causes a problem, then I will see a 
bug in my program, which /might/ be traced to getting a negative value 
when it should be positive. But if the code is passed through an 
optimising C compiler, I might not see that, and the bug will be more 
subtle.

Back to comp.lang.c | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

C23 (C2x) changes Mehdi Amini <atorrses@gmail.com> - 2021-09-20 10:54 +0430
  Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-20 09:35 +0200
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Mehdi Amini <atorrses@gmail.com> - 2021-09-21 11:01 +0430
  Re: C23 (C2x) changes John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2021-09-20 10:41 -0500
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-20 18:17 +0200
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-20 18:55 +0100
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-09-20 18:21 +0000
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-20 21:39 +0200
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-20 21:07 +0100
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-20 22:59 +0200
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-20 22:29 +0100
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-20 17:43 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-21 17:56 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-21 18:05 +0100
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-21 11:42 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-22 11:37 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-22 11:55 +0100
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-22 14:21 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-22 13:58 +0100
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Ian Pilcher <arequipeno@gmail.com> - 2021-09-22 12:02 -0500
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-09-22 17:19 +0000
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-20 23:05 +0100
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-09-20 22:47 +0000
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-09-20 22:58 +0000
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-02 07:16 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-02 15:15 +0000
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-20 17:45 -0700
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2021-09-27 17:15 +0200
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-09-27 17:38 +0100
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2021-09-27 23:18 +0200
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2021-09-28 13:53 +0000
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-02 08:07 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-02 15:18 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-02 15:04 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-03 01:58 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-02 22:06 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-03 10:43 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-03 13:30 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-04 05:04 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-03 23:24 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-04 06:54 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-04 09:58 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-04 15:52 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-04 10:45 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-04 20:30 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-06 03:57 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-06 12:27 +0000
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-29 03:38 +0000
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-15 11:35 +0100
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-10-15 18:27 +0000
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-15 20:08 +0100
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-10-15 19:20 +0000
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-15 21:50 +0100
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de> - 2021-10-03 09:43 +0200
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-10-03 18:53 +0200
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-03 13:55 -0700
  Re: C23 (C2x) changes William Ahern <william@25thandClement.com> - 2021-09-21 22:57 -0700
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-02 08:55 -0700
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-02 16:36 +0000
  Re: C23 (C2x) changes Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-09-22 20:27 +0200
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2021-09-22 22:25 +0200
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-22 14:05 -0700
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-22 23:24 +0100
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-09-22 18:49 -0700
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-09-23 18:47 +0200
  Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) William Ahern <william@25thandClement.com> - 2021-09-23 21:11 -0700
    Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-24 08:51 +0200
      Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2021-09-24 09:30 +0200
    Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-24 07:52 +0000
      Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2021-09-24 12:32 +0200
        Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-24 10:49 +0000
          Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2021-09-24 14:46 +0200
      Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-09-24 18:14 +0200
        Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-25 01:00 +0000
          Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2021-09-25 07:44 +0200
            Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-25 11:28 +0000
            Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2021-09-28 10:56 +0000
          Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-09-25 09:48 +0200
            Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-25 11:30 +0000
              Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2021-09-25 20:49 +0000
                Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-26 00:04 +0000
              Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-09-26 06:56 +0200
  Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-09-27 10:15 -0700
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-27 11:15 -0700
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-27 22:11 +0200
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-09-27 14:20 -0700
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-09-27 14:31 -0700
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Mehdi Amini <atorrses@gmail.com> - 2021-09-28 10:43 +0330
  Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-06 04:01 -0700
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-10-06 04:42 -0700
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-29 04:04 -0700
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-29 16:34 +0200
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-10-06 19:07 +0200
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-07 11:06 +0200
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-10-07 19:31 +0200
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-07 22:14 +0200
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-10-08 06:18 -0700
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-10-08 06:21 -0700
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-29 04:01 -0700
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-15 12:59 +0200
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2021-10-15 16:50 +0000
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-16 07:51 +0200
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-10-16 11:50 -0700
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-16 21:28 +0200
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2021-10-17 17:18 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-17 20:00 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-17 19:17 +0100
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-18 06:49 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-18 11:23 +0100
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-18 14:09 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-21 01:07 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-21 01:02 +0000
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-10-16 21:28 +0200
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-17 06:04 +0200
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2021-10-17 19:35 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-17 20:01 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-10-17 14:15 -0700
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-21 01:02 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-21 13:15 +0200

csiph-web