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Re: C23 (C2x) changes

From Bart <bc@freeuk.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: C23 (C2x) changes
Date 2021-09-20 21:07 +0100
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <siaplj$r7d$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References <si99fr$ma4$1@dont-email.me> <siaa3b$t76$1@dont-email.me> <siac7m$8r0$1@dont-email.me> <siahul$tb8$1@dont-email.me> <siao15$qbr$1@dont-email.me>

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On 20/09/2021 20:39, David Brown wrote:
> On 20/09/2021 19:55, Bart wrote:
>> On 20/09/2021 17:17, David Brown wrote:
>>> On 20/09/2021 17:41, John Bode wrote:
>>
>>>> If signed integer representations other than two's complement will
>>>> no longer be supported, does this mean signed integer overflow can
>>>> have a well-defined behavior?  Or will it still be left undefined
>>>> to allow for optimizations?  Or could that be controlled with one
>>>> of these newfangled attribute thingies?
>>>
>>>
>>> No, signed integer overflow is still undefined behaviour - for which I
>>> am very glad.  Defining it is terrible, IMHO, since any definition you
>>> give will be the wrong answer.  Some would want it defined as wrapping
>>> ($DEITY knows why, since it is the silliest of all definitions despite
>>> being fairly efficient to implement), some would want it as an error or
>>> a trap, some would want saturation, some would want a NaN, some would
>>> want errno to be set.
>>>
>>> For those that think it makes sense to have a pile of 2147483647 apples,
>>> add another apple to the pile, and end up with -2147483648 apples, gcc
>>> still has the "-fwrapv" option.
>>
>> Of course it makes perfect sense to have a pile of 4294967295 apples,
>> add another apple to the pile, and suddenly end up with 0 apples!
> 
> I don't think it does make sense - although it is a good deal less silly
> than wrapping signed integers.  Unsigned types in C model modulo
> arithmetic precisely - signed types model integer arithmetic with size
> limitations.  In integer arithmetic, and in C signed arithmetic, you
> can't add two positive numbers and get a negative number.  That seems
> pretty obvious and sensible to me.
> 
>>
>> Meanwhile, someone could remove that extra apple from the pile of
>> -2147483648, to restore the original 2147483647, however that's too
>> late: the overflow police have already been, and will do so again even
>> when it becomes legal.
>>
> 
> "Someone could remove an apple from a pile of -2147483648 apples" ?  Do
> you not see how nonsensical that is?
> 

Well, that's how it's defined with twos complement 32-bit arithmetic.

You add 1 to the pile of 0x7FFF'FFFF (int32.max) to get the bit-pattern 
0x8000'0000 (which represents int32.min). You can subtract 1 again to 
get back to 0x7FFF'FFFF.

You can evaluate int32.max + (1 - 1) with no problem, but you can't do 
(int32.max + 1) - 1, which yields exactly the same result on two's 
complement hardware, for what reason?

Note that with (uint32.max + 1) - 1, it seems to be acceptable to get an 
intermediate out-of-range result.

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Thread

C23 (C2x) changes Mehdi Amini <atorrses@gmail.com> - 2021-09-20 10:54 +0430
  Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-20 09:35 +0200
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Mehdi Amini <atorrses@gmail.com> - 2021-09-21 11:01 +0430
  Re: C23 (C2x) changes John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2021-09-20 10:41 -0500
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-20 18:17 +0200
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-20 18:55 +0100
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-09-20 18:21 +0000
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-20 21:39 +0200
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-20 21:07 +0100
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-20 22:59 +0200
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-20 22:29 +0100
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-20 17:43 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-21 17:56 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-21 18:05 +0100
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-21 11:42 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-22 11:37 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-22 11:55 +0100
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-22 14:21 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-22 13:58 +0100
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Ian Pilcher <arequipeno@gmail.com> - 2021-09-22 12:02 -0500
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-09-22 17:19 +0000
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-20 23:05 +0100
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-09-20 22:47 +0000
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-09-20 22:58 +0000
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-02 07:16 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-02 15:15 +0000
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-20 17:45 -0700
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2021-09-27 17:15 +0200
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-09-27 17:38 +0100
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2021-09-27 23:18 +0200
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2021-09-28 13:53 +0000
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-02 08:07 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-02 15:18 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-02 15:04 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-03 01:58 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-02 22:06 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-03 10:43 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-03 13:30 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-04 05:04 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-03 23:24 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-04 06:54 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-04 09:58 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-04 15:52 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-04 10:45 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-04 20:30 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-06 03:57 -0700
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-06 12:27 +0000
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-29 03:38 +0000
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-15 11:35 +0100
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-10-15 18:27 +0000
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-15 20:08 +0100
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-10-15 19:20 +0000
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-15 21:50 +0100
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de> - 2021-10-03 09:43 +0200
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-10-03 18:53 +0200
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-03 13:55 -0700
  Re: C23 (C2x) changes William Ahern <william@25thandClement.com> - 2021-09-21 22:57 -0700
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-02 08:55 -0700
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-02 16:36 +0000
  Re: C23 (C2x) changes Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-09-22 20:27 +0200
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2021-09-22 22:25 +0200
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-22 14:05 -0700
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-09-22 23:24 +0100
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-09-22 18:49 -0700
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-09-23 18:47 +0200
  Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) William Ahern <william@25thandClement.com> - 2021-09-23 21:11 -0700
    Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-24 08:51 +0200
      Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2021-09-24 09:30 +0200
    Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-24 07:52 +0000
      Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2021-09-24 12:32 +0200
        Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-24 10:49 +0000
          Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2021-09-24 14:46 +0200
      Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-09-24 18:14 +0200
        Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-25 01:00 +0000
          Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2021-09-25 07:44 +0200
            Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-25 11:28 +0000
            Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2021-09-28 10:56 +0000
          Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-09-25 09:48 +0200
            Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-25 11:30 +0000
              Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2021-09-25 20:49 +0000
                Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-09-26 00:04 +0000
              Re: Static bounds checking (was Re: C23 (C2x) changes) Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-09-26 06:56 +0200
  Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-09-27 10:15 -0700
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-27 11:15 -0700
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-27 22:11 +0200
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-09-27 14:20 -0700
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-09-27 14:31 -0700
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Mehdi Amini <atorrses@gmail.com> - 2021-09-28 10:43 +0330
  Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-06 04:01 -0700
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-10-06 04:42 -0700
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-29 04:04 -0700
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-29 16:34 +0200
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-10-06 19:07 +0200
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-07 11:06 +0200
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-10-07 19:31 +0200
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-07 22:14 +0200
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-10-08 06:18 -0700
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2021-10-08 06:21 -0700
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-29 04:01 -0700
    Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-15 12:59 +0200
      Re: C23 (C2x) changes Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2021-10-15 16:50 +0000
        Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-16 07:51 +0200
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-10-16 11:50 -0700
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-16 21:28 +0200
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2021-10-17 17:18 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-17 20:00 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-17 19:17 +0100
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-18 06:49 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-18 11:23 +0100
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-18 14:09 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-21 01:07 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-21 01:02 +0000
          Re: C23 (C2x) changes Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-10-16 21:28 +0200
            Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-17 06:04 +0200
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2021-10-17 19:35 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-17 20:01 +0200
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-10-17 14:15 -0700
              Re: C23 (C2x) changes Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-21 01:02 +0000
                Re: C23 (C2x) changes Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-21 13:15 +0200

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