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Groups > rec.arts.sf.written > #501629
| From | "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | rec.arts.sf.written |
| Subject | Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor |
| Date | 2018-10-31 20:11 -0400 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <prdgb8$9ks$1@dont-email.me> (permalink) |
| References | (2 earlier) <XnsA9777D4D060F1Kdeuramagmailcom@85.214.115.223> <ppm2oo$mdd$1@dont-email.me> <87k1m13m3i.fsf@violet.siamics.net> <pr9i7h$e75$1@dont-email.me> <87ftwm2izi.fsf@violet.siamics.net> |
On 10/31/18 12:12 PM, Ivan Shmakov wrote:
>>>>>> Sea Wasp (Ryk E Spoor) <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
>>>>>> On 10/28/18 3:30 PM, Ivan Shmakov wrote:
>>>>>> Sea Wasp (Ryk E Spoor) <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
>
> [...]
>
> >>> The entire FOCUS of the novel is "Do the Right Thing".
>
> >>> If you take anything in the book as being relevant to real life,
> >>> it's fairly overt -- the position and treatment of young women in
> >>> society, the difficulties of people in lower-class situations, etc.
>
> >> Well, I'm going to ask what I find essentially the same question,
> >> but from a different angle. Stephen Russ was, at one point, a
> >> 14-year-old geek himself. Through choices and (mis)fortune, he
> >> ended up where we find them at the start of the novel: no parents,
> >> friends scattered across the country, a not-quite-rewarding (so to
> >> say) job.
>
> >> Now that she's Holly Owen, 14, what, exactly, prevents her life from
> >> taking a similar turn? I mean, other than the obvious "standing for
> >> the world" business (which will likely keep their company together
> >> for a while) -- and a tangible chance of the nascent romance
> >> developing into a rock-solid relationship?
>
> > Her entire circumstances are different. She's not a boy, but a girl,
> > and apparently comfortable as one (exploring the details of WHY might
> > be an interesting side note for her, if she goes that route).
>
> JFTR, I find the "s/he wasn't attached much to gender" explanation
> already offered in this thread plausible. (In the sense that it
> doesn't seem to contradict my own reading of the book.)
>
That's certainly one perfectly reasonable explanation; that while
Steve, by default, had fastened onto being a man as one of his identity
elements, it wasn't because that aspect was, itself, so important to
him, and thus she could transfer the identity without that providing too
much difficulty.
> > She's highly physically attractive, seems to have a positive personality,
>
> That personality still roots in Steve's own (or does it not?);
> which kind of raises the question if his personality could've
> changed that way under more... "mundane" circumstances?
>
The base root of it is very much Steve's, but the change in
circumstances, self-perceptions, and of course the "templates" make it
not the same at all.
> > is growing up a decade and a half later than Steve did, has a
> > close-knit group of friends with a broad swath of interests and
> > skills who will give her a number of other ... well, PUSHES to keep
> > herself involved with the world, she has a boyfriend who she knew as
> > a friend for at least a few years prior (which is an important aspect
> > of any romance), and, last but certainly not least, she's got immense
> > supernatural power, she's saved the world with it after risking
> > everything, and she still has a PURPOSE in life.
>
> My point is that were it not for said purpose, would that group
> of friends remain together for that much long? Which is to say:
> survive graduation, going to likely different colleges, graduating
> from there and getting their jobs -- that sort of thing?
In a sense that may be an interesting question... but OTOH it's one of
those irrelevant questions like "What if Superman permanently gave up
his powers?". Might be interesting in a one-off, but in a series you
KNOW it's not gonna stay that way, and the writer trying to play with it
is just teasing you with something that you absolutely know is going to
be reversed.
>
> Now that the fate of the world /depends/ on said friendship --
> yes, I don't see them separating anytime soon.
>
> I'm unsure as to what effect the other differences may have.
> For instance, I'd say that physical attractiveness is overrated;
> though I don't have any substantial evidence to back up my claim.
I would not say that being phenomenally attractive is an unalloyed
blessing by any means, but it IS going to have an effect, good and bad,
on your life.
>
> >> Other than that, my other issues (if they can indeed be called that)
> >> with the novel are fairly generic. For example, what the aliens eat
> >> for^W^W do when they /do not/ try to invade Earth? With the
> >> successive incursions being separated by decades (if not centuries),
> >> it seems that conquering Earth is hardly a matter of survival.
>
> > The implication in the novel is that they CAN'T get to Earth in
> > between the seals, so they're probably either (A) looking for other
> > worlds that need destroying/changing, and (B) preparing for their
> > next chance.
>
> All that while us, humans, have empires rise and fall; or, more
> recently, had Green Revolution, harnessed nuclear energy and
> started exploring space... At this point, I'm inclined to
> believe that what they hate or fear is /change./
That may be part of it. Like Popeye, they are what they are, and things
that CHANGE what they are may be perceived to them the way we would tend
to perceive a living thing that was amorphous and constantly shifting;
unsettling and unnatural, like the Shoggoth.
>
> > Holy Aura perceives that they are inimical to the existence of life
> > as we know it, and they hate and/or fear the magic/power/essence of
> > humanity and Earth.
>
> ... Though like I said, that's my generic issue. I can see how
> it'd complicate writing a story about fighting an alien threat
> were said threat be of the "just misunderstood" variety.
> (Or worse: offered a peace treaty right upon the first contact.)
I've written quite a few stories in which the Bad Guys turned out, for
the most part, to not BE so bad, and a couple in which there weren't any
bad guys really at all. This one, not so much.
>
> Then again, I've certainly enjoyed a moment in some story, which
> was going about as follows.
>
> "Well, you see, tomorrow the stars will be arranged in just the way
> that some of the otherworldly creatures love to celebrate. Mind you,
> they all will be wearing the necessary spells so not to disturb the
> locals; I expect no trouble, but..."
>
> "But?"
>
> "You, as the champion of the God of Truth, are immune to said spells.
> Hence, I'd strongly recommend staying home tomorrow's night."
>
> (The protagonist ended up needing the memory of said night wiped
> to recover her sanity.)
>
> ... Or, there's "All Flesh is Grass," depicting an alien invasion
> gone right.
>
> >> Moreover, unless I be mistaken, their goal is to convert Earth to be
> >> more like their own plane of existence. Now, Earth attracts them by
> >> being different; what would they do once it becomes the same?
> >> What'd be their gain?
>
> > As implied above, we are an obscenity to them, or a threat. They
> > tried to squish us like bugs, and found out we had a far nastier
> > sting than they imagined possible.
>
> That's part of my point: humans, in general, have natural aversion
> to certain creatures -- and perfectly earthly ones at that --
> such as snakes or arthropods. However, through learning, it's
> possible to overcome that. For example, I had no trouble rescuing
> a centipede from a kitchen sink. Not to mention moving all those
> newly hatched spiders off the kitchen and to more safe places.
> (Though they look rather cute at that point. Much less so when
> they grow to half an inch and peer at you from behind the cupboard.)
>
> Why, some people even keep arthropods as "pets."
And it's true that some of Queen Azathoth's people might have seen
things that way. Hell, whatever the Deep Ones are, they stem from
SOMETHING of the Eldritch Horrors having children by humans or something
similar.
But if you're ruled by what appears to have been a godlike queen who
DOESN'T share your attitude, well, you keep it to yourself.
>
> > The gain is, well, security.
>
> (... Which somehow reminds me of way too many of the governments
> of today...)
>
> > Whether it's security as in "We finally got rid of that wasp's nest"
> > or "we finally defeated smallpox" or "we finally defeated the alien
> > monsters" isn't completely clear.
>
> Well, I certainly would hope to see it explored further!
Eventually, if I get to more of the books.
>
> >> Then, the antagonists are depicted as exhibiting behavior not unlike
> >> 'loyalty' and 'friendship.' Which is to say, being perhaps a bit
> >> too humane? (It's something that, say, Lovecraft's stories tend to
> >> lack, IMO.)
>
> > Such a thing is seen between Queen Nyarla and Arlaung, yes, but it
> > should be noted that both of those have strong EARTHLY connections.
> > Arlaung comes from the Deep Ones, and while he may have a strong
> > strain of unearthly blood he's still connected strongly to Earthly
> > life as well. And Nyarla, of course, was originally human.
>
> Yes. And AFAICT, she retained a lot of her humanity. Yet still,
> she is not feared nor hated -- or at least not to the extent as
> the rest of the Earth population -- by the invaders. So, what
> is that she had lost that made her "acceptable" to them?
She fell under their control and assisted them in their invasion. Her
attitudes of ambition and interest in power at least were comprehensible
to them in some fashion, even if her obsession with Varatraine probably
wasn't.
In other words, she was a useful tool, and she demonstrated enough
competence and accepted her lot sufficiently that she was really much
more THEM than US... though not quite entirely so.
>
> Could it perhaps be something like, to paraphrase Sam Starfall,
> "our attachment to our own bones"?
>
> > We see little-to-none of that between the true horrors that are
> > summoned into the world.
>
> Hm. Procelli seemed to understand at least some facets of human
> nature; wicked ones, yes, but still. Which, I suppose, was the
> reason to get him involved in the first place.
He understands how to MANIPULATE them. HIS particular interests are in
the corruption of others. Whether he actually UNDERSTANDS the feelings
in the sense that he could imagine what they're LIKE, that's different.
He's more likely AT LEAST a sociopath.
>
> >> This is of course related to my deep conviction that no "life" is
> >> possible, in the long term, without a degree of harmony and beauty
> >> -- however alien, and even inimical, it may be to man.
>
> > They may have such perceptions but they exist in a form outside that
> > of our normal human understanding.
>
> Which still leaves "keep out of each other's way" as a possible
> course of action, for both sides.
>
> >> (Which kind of prompts me to wonder if even a truce is indeed
> >> impossible?)
>
> > One based on mutual understanding, probably not. One based on "Holy
> > crap, they just blew away Azathoth Nine-Armed!", perhaps.
>
> At this point of the conflict, I'd say that's about as good starting
> point as any.
>
Well, it's definitely the best starting point they have. "Maybe these
guys really ARE too hard a nut to crack."
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org
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Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-10 19:19 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-10 19:42 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-11 00:13 -0700
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-11 06:55 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-12 04:25 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-12 08:23 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-12 08:59 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-10-12 20:17 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-10-12 19:20 -0600
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-10-13 02:50 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-13 05:46 -0700
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-10-13 14:55 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-10-13 09:29 -0500
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-10-13 15:21 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-13 11:41 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-14 21:50 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-10-14 18:29 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-10-14 23:24 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-14 20:01 -0700
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-10-15 02:05 -0600
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor lal_truckee <lal_truckee@yahoo.com> - 2018-10-15 09:18 -0700
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-15 16:45 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2018-10-17 22:54 -0700
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-15 19:32 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) - 2018-10-16 07:13 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Magewolf <Magewolf@nc.rr.com> - 2018-10-16 14:13 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-16 23:53 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-10-16 21:31 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-10-16 22:43 -0600
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2018-10-17 05:03 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor frank.scrooby@gmail.com - 2018-10-16 23:44 -0700
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-17 06:54 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor peterwezeman@hotmail.com - 2018-10-13 13:21 -0700
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-10-13 21:48 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-10-13 16:01 -0600
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-12 21:42 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-12 18:16 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-12 23:48 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-12 20:00 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-13 00:36 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-12 22:04 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-15 00:21 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-15 19:31 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor -dsr- <dsr-usenet@randomstring.org> - 2018-10-18 12:48 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-19 04:33 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-19 16:29 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-19 18:12 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Magewolf <Magewolf@nc.rr.com> - 2018-10-20 09:45 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-26 02:30 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-26 12:35 -0700
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-10-28 19:30 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-28 23:03 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-30 08:18 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-10-31 01:12 -0600
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-31 02:33 -0700
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-31 10:53 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2018-10-31 14:27 -0500
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-31 13:54 -0700
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2018-10-31 14:41 -0700
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> - 2018-11-01 14:40 +1300
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> - 2018-11-01 14:34 +1300
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-10-31 16:12 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-31 20:11 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-11-01 11:55 -0500
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-11-01 16:12 -0700
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-11-01 17:43 -0700
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-11-01 19:35 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2018-11-02 16:47 -0700
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-11-01 10:18 -0700
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-11-01 19:35 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-10 19:47 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-10-11 14:57 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-11 18:15 -0400
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