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Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor

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On 10/10/18 3:19 PM, Joe Bernstein wrote:
> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
> news:ppi81l$e2u$1@dont-email.me:
> 
>> (Spoilers below, naturally)
> 
>> On 10/5/18 7:57 PM, Joe Bernstein wrote:
> 
> [<Princess Holy Aura>'s status as a magical girl novel helps explain]
> 
>>> 3. Its care in avoiding the obvious depths possible to the core idea.
>>>
>>> It doesn't avoid *all* of them.
> 
>>       I described writing this book as tapdancing on landmines while juggling
>> containers of gasoline. There were some Very Very Very bad directions
>> this could go (maybe beyond mere "Oh John Ringo No" and straight to "Oh
>> No Piers Anthony No"). So exploring various ideas had to be done ...
>> carefully.
> 
> Fair enough.
> 
>>     The book takes care to keep the
>>> possibility that its protagonist could be seen as a pervert in heaven
>>> front and centre, even though it keeps refuting the idea.  But a
>>> whole lot of other stuff is weakly developed if at all.  We're told
>>> that somewhere inside the transformed protagonist's mind there's a
>>> discrete bit representing her former male self, reacting in fairly
>>> predictable ways to milestones in her female life.  But we're also
>>> told that this character ultimately has no desire whatsoever to do
>>> as the book's setup demands, and go back to male life when the
>>> apocalypse is averted.  Huh?
>>
>>       Steve/Holly changed during their tenure. To a small extent, this is
>> because there was, as Silvertail mentions, a "template" of the Magical
>> Girl that gives the nascent Holly Owen/Holy Aura an actual foundation of
>> ... well, "essence of teenage girl", that Steve-Before-Book didn't have.
> 
> OK, small extent.  So - as I give you credit for making *usual* in
> the book - the magic doesn't dictate the personal here.
> 
>>       The book leaves open whether Steve had any hidden TG elements; it
>> wasn't necessary to delve into that one way or the other.
> 
> I remember that on first reading I felt something mildly strange
> about his interaction with Dex before and after the game, FWIW.
> No idea whether you wanted that vibe.  This didn't recur, as best I
> remember, on second reading.
> 
>>       Another major factor is that while Steve had gaming friends, he had
>> very few PEERS. He was essentially alone in his life, his parents gone,
>> all his friends from childhood dead or dispersed, and his gaming group
>> the only outside contact he had. He was a nice guy, and he knew as
>> nodding acquaintances a lot of people around him, but he was in an
>> isolated, dead-end existence. The promise of "well, the magic will make
>> your life better if this ends well" is nice, but that's a vague future
>> promise even if you believe it.
>>
>>       Her existence as Holly, OTOH, was very real, immediate, and more
>> diverse and colorful than his existence as Steve.
> 
> Is a spouse a peer?  Seems to me that depends on the couple's views
> on gender relations, and we're given plenty of evidence that Stephen
> Russ would say yes to that question.

	A spouse would be a peer. He has no spouse, though, so there's no 
connection there.


> 
> This is the core of my concern - this is essentially auctorial
> confirmation of what I listed as possibility g) in a previous post,
> there described as Holly having relationships Stephen couldn't have.
> 
> I'm going to tackle this in two ways in this post.  First, abstractly,
> so that'll be here.
> 
> We're told that Stephen is manager of a bagel place.

	No, we're not. We're told he WORKS at a bagel place. He was not a manager.

	This bears upon your discussion below. His only peers would be the 
other workers in the place, and they're not, really, peers, as he's 
older than most of them, or younger than most of them.

>  We aren't told
> whether he has co-workers, but that isn't actually relevant to what
> you say here, because even at that level, subordinates aren't peers.
> (He does seem to be his group's only DM, which means his players
> aren't peers either.  Not all groups work that way; the fact that the
> teen group in the book doesn't, is sort of a thumb on the scales I'll
> get to.) 

	There is no particular difference in the mechanics of how Steve's old 
group and new group work, at least in terms of the GM position. Until 
Dex and Holly start working on alternative games, Holly's the only GM, 
and that's for most of the book.


> We also aren't told what sorts of shops surround the bagel
> place - whether it's the only shop for a mile each way, whether it's
> in a mall (though evidently not the one that gets trashed), a strip
> mall, a commercial block, a mostly non-commercial skyscraper, what.
> This has significant consequences for his human contact; neighbouring
> shopkeepers *are* his peers, though his interests and theirs may well
> not overlap.

	As per my prior bit, they aren't peers, as he's not a manager (and a 
MANAGER is not an OWNER, so if the other shops around are mostly 
local-owned and managed (they are, it's Little Italy in Troy, basically) 
and he's working in a chain store, there's even less connection, even if 
he was a manager).

> 
> I think in America generally, people in their thirties are more
> isolated than in their twenties or teens.  The intense sociality of
> high school has pretty much faded.  Jobs tend to offer fewer peers -
> for example here, he isn't just a regular worker at the bagel place,
> but the manager.  Quite a lot of people that age have pretty much
> retreated into family life, their social lives built around their
> kids' lives.  This is pretty much the first decade in which the
> negative consequences of remaining unmarried come front and centre.
> So is a spouse a peer?

	A spouse would be, but he doesn't have one. I didn't have one until I 
was well over 30. The original Steve had one, but that would have added 
complications to the story I didn't want to touch in this book (that's 
more for my planned series _The Door Reopened_ if I get to it).

> 
>>> I think this dissonance invites a couple of misreadings:
> 
>> Or you're going to have to assume that the complexity
>> comes unconsciously into the work, but then you have to assume I can't
>> speak to what the truth is.
> 
> I neither abjure nor prefer the sort of "author's intent doesn't
> matter" thing usually called New Criticism.  In this particular case,
> I think I can reasonably argue that the book does things you may not
> have intended it to do; that makes it quite like many other human
> activities that have unintended consequences, after all.
> 
>>> But I
>>> think the book *does* have a genuine flaw, at the end, when the
>>> darkness proper to the protagonist's decisions is undermined by their
>>> lack of clear motivation. [2]
> 
>>       If you mean Holy Aura's final decision to choose to attempt the
>> impossible, I'm rather surprised and disappointed that you miss the
>> motivation that I THOUGHT I had made clear through multiple repetitions,
>> and encapsulated by some of Holly's final words:
> 
> Nope, didn't miss that at all.  That isn't the decision I meant.
> 
> In the post you're quoting, I waffled by putting it in plural:
> "decisions".  Later I said the evidence that I was talking about a
> "decision" at all was weak, but my interlocutor said it was a
> reasonable word choice.
> 
> Anyway, what I mean is Holly's expressed preference for staying a
> girl after the apocalypse is averted, followed by her action that
> (almost certainly unintentionally) makes that preference
> unavoidable, followed, of course, by the magical loose end that
> enables the preference to happen (once again, in this book, neatly
> subordinating the magical to the personal).  Her strong hostility
> toward her (original) male form *is* dark, and should have dark
> underpinnings; it doesn't.
> 

	I don't see it as dark but more conflicting. Holly's found a really 
pretty wonderful life that she did not expect, especially with the 
initial strain of becoming Holy Aura and abandoning Steve for very 
practical reasons. After all the time -- very, VERY intense time with 
strong emotional components -- with her new friends, she's developed 
extremely strong bonds with them-- stronger and more emotionally 
powerful than likely any bonds he's ever had with anyone outside his 
parents.

	This is a HUGE motivation for Holly to want to remain that way. The 
"rosy future" that Silvertail promises may be quite real -- Steve has no 
reason to doubt Silvertail's word -- but it's ABSTRACT. It hasn't a 
thousandth the emotional lure that "keep these friends and this life 
that I've really come to enjoy" has.

	It's only DARK if you think that it's BAD that a person can change 
their goals and self-image.


> I don't see much alternative to doing what I did above again, this
> time less abstractly.  I'm not comfortable doing this, which is why
> I put this post off overnight.
> 
> So OK.  In the book, I'm not sure of Holly's age.  She's a freshman
> in high school in an area that has junior highs.  I thought junior
> high went to 9th grade; so is Holly in 10th?  But let's pretend she
> really is a freshman, and fourteen (the back cover's "twelve" can be
> ignored).  As a freshman I was in the same school building, though
> notionally a different school, as eighth grade, so I knew people,
> including the guy who arranged to film me allegedly kissing a fellow
> geek during that year.  (We were all terrified of homosexuality.  I
> heard that wasn't true, a few years later at that school, but it was
> when I was there.)  Also the fellow geeks; I didn't like them all,
> but they were the people I was able to socialise with at school.  But
> I still knew people from childhood.  I got into gaming that year, and
> people from childhood, people I met at the university near my house,
> and people from high school were all in my first games.  I was often
> miserably lonely, but this was a rich social life compared to much
> that lay ahead.  If we go on to when I was fourteen (I was two grades
> ahead), it was even richer, because by then girls who interested me
> were talking to me (though not dating me).

	This is not my experience of high school, nor that of most of the 
people I knew. I had very, very few friends. I did not socialize with 
anyone who did not share a number of interests with me. My richest 
social life lay much farther ahead. (I DID use the terror of 
homosexuality on occasion; threatening to kiss guys bothering me would 
get them to flee)

	Part of the irony of Holy Aura for me is that she finds her high school 
life ATTRACTIVE, when it was a period of life I wouldn't have gone back 
to if you paid me. OTOH, compared with Steve's life... that's a 
different choice.

> 
> When I turned thirty I lived in Chicago; when I turned forty I lived
> in Seattle; but most of the decade in between, I lived in Wisconsin,
> in Milwaukee except for about 18 months in Madison.
> 
> That year in Chicago represented the collapse of the social pattern
> of my 20s.  I'd worked for several years in a bank department that
> offered rich social possibilities, lots and lots of my near- or full
> contemporaries.  But even while I was flaming out of there, quite a
> few of my friends were moving on, travelling, getting promoted ...
> (My nominal supervisor at the time of the flame-out had been a peer.)
> I'd also worked for several years at The Stars Our Destination, and
> when I left I had friends from there, and feeble hopes to date a co-
> worker.  The friends I'd made writing, earlier in the decade, had
> already dispersed, for the most part, as had my college friends.
> 
> I haven't lived comfortably in Milwaukee as an adult, and the two
> stints in my thirties were no exception.  During the first I only
> slowly let go of Chicago, and most of the friends from there.  I had
> no sustained jobs in Milwaukee as I'd had in my late 20s, and the few
> people I retained *any* contact with weren't peers but references.
> Madison was even more isolating.  The second stint in Milwaukee was
> dominated by my mother's death, and later by my planning for Seattle,
> although it included my closest association with gaming since my
> teens.  (A game run by a friend who'd married, but not had kids.)
> There's a line in <A Civil Campaign> that I first read during those
> years - "Once past his school days, Tien had never made a new good
> friend."  It isn't actually true of me, but it worried me a lot,
> around then.  In particular, even though my work kept me moving
> around, I met very few women who interested me, and none for whom I
> could sustain that interest.
> 
> Which brings me to ...  Already in my 20s, I'm pretty sure I'd
> noticed that my next older brother, my elder sister and I all have
> essentially the same face.  Probably if my twin sister had lived,
> she'd have had it too.  In women, it's a pretty face.  In men, not
> so much, and of course my *height*, never over 5'3" (160 cm) didn't
> help.  What I'm getting at is that as I reached higher and more
> embarrassing ages at which to retain one's virginity, it became ever
> more obvious that if I'd been born a woman (or even, for that matter,
> gay), in this one increasingly important respect I'd have been a lot
> better off.


	Except that it's not better off for women in our society (especially if 
you go back decades), and it seems you accepted more of the cultural 
norms of THAT period. Mine was much more "sex comes with marriage, not 
before" and I was a virgin until I married.

> 

> This isn't much like Stephen Russ's story.  Mine included college;
> his ?didn't.  His may have included the military; mine certainly
> didn't.  I sought all sorts of social hobbies; he focused on one.  He
> seems to have stayed in one place; I moved around a lot, although for
> much of my thirties I was actually in my hometown.
> 
> But I think I'd need a lot of evidence to refute this before I'd stop
> believing it:  that unmarried men in their 30s who live near
> minimum wage, all other things equal, have worse social lives than
> well-off teenaged girls.  In general, across the board.  My life, the
> lives I've observed, my reading, all say so.  Hell, my life says even
> a poor teenaged boy has a richer social life than a poor thirtyish
> unmarried man.
> 
> In other words, I think the comparison the character makes is rigged.
> So the book's advice to people like the earlier me boils down to "be
> a rich girl instead".  This is why I'd rather the protagonist had
> decided on pretty much *any* other grounds.

	There's no advice in the book at all.

	The point of _Princess Holy Aura_ was to examine the typical Mahou 
Shoujo setup from a slightly different point of view, and examine the 
CHOICES made *with respect to that particular setup* -- for instance, 
the moral/ethical issues involved with selecting fourteen year old girls 
as your shocktroops in the war against Ultimate Evil.

	The original title of _Princess Holy Aura_ (and still the title of the 
series if/when I continue it) is The Ethical Magical Girl. ("Moral" 
might or might not be a better term, but "Ethical" flows much better). 
The entire FOCUS of the novel is "Do the Right Thing".

	If you take anything in the book as being relevant to real life, it's 
fairly overt -- the position and treatment of young women in society, 
the difficulties of people in lower-class situations, etc.

> 
> Or to put it another way:  if that comparison underlies Holly's
> aversion to Stephen, then it represents a teenaged misjudgement.
> People in their thirties are *supposed* to be uncomfortable if
> unmarried.  So the book's endorsing an alternative is, um, weird
> at best.

	Why are they supposed to be uncomfortable? Why should ANYONE be 
uncomfortable as long as they're not hurting other people? For a long 
time I, and others I knew, was perfectly comfortable not being married. 
Marriage is a big step in responsibility and commitment. If you're not 
up for that, you'll be a LOT more comfortable NOT being married.

> 
>>       Later on you also make a statement... lemme see if I can find the
>> post... here: "...This doesn't have room for
>> their viewpoints, and he doesn't intend any more of this story,"
>>
>>       Not at all. I intend, whenever I can, to continue the story. I set it
>> up that way, after all. If I'd KNOWN for a fact that I'd have sequels,
>> yes, I might have left Holly's resurrection until the next one, but I
>> see a lot of potential for more stories. Part of this is implied in the
>> short story that accompanied the release of _Princess Holy Aura_,
>> "On-Site for the Apocalypse". There's lots to come in that universe.
>> Hopefully I get to write it.
> 
> I misunderstood.  I read <Princess Holy Aura>, then decided I needed
> to know more about your writing (I'd previously read only <Boundary>,
> <Threshold> and <Portal>).  So I read <Digital Knight>, <Grand
> Central Arena>, <Spheres of Influence>, and <Challenges of the Deep>.
> Only in <Challenges> and <Princess> did the book end "FIN", so I took
> that in each case as a declaration of closure.  Glad it's not so.


	Challenges is also only "FIN" in the sense that I'll have to 
Kickstarter it, like sequels to PHA, since Baen isn't paying for more of 
them.

	(the Arenaverse is even more open than the PHA-verse, and that one's 
pretty open)

	Phoenix Ascendant also ends, I think, with FIN, but it's only FIN for 
that trilogy; there's other adventures in that world, and even others 
potentially for Kyri, Tobimar, and Poplock.

	For PHA, did you read the accompanying short story "On-Site for the 
Apocalypse"? Because the main characters in that story will undoubtedly 
be significant characters in the sequel(s) of PHA. "On-Site" also gives 
you a different perspective on some of the events in the novel.




-- 
                      Sea Wasp
                        /^\
                        ;;;	
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com  Blog: 
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org

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<Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 23:57 +0000
  Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor xubist@gmail.com - 2018-10-05 23:53 -0700
    Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2018-10-06 09:42 -0500
      Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-10-06 09:38 -0700
        Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-06 12:28 -0700
          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-10-06 13:43 -0700
      Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-10-06 11:46 -0600
      Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor xubist@gmail.com - 2018-10-07 06:09 -0700
  Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor -dsr- <dsr-usenet@randomstring.org> - 2018-10-07 08:34 -0400
    Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-07 22:13 +0000
      Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor -dsr- <dsr-usenet@randomstring.org> - 2018-10-08 10:02 -0400
        Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor mcdowell_ag@sky.com - 2018-10-08 11:28 -0700
        Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-08 18:31 +0000
          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-08 14:23 -0700
          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor -dsr- <dsr-usenet@randomstring.org> - 2018-10-08 19:40 -0400
            Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-09 16:33 +0000
              Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor -dsr- <dsr-usenet@randomstring.org> - 2018-10-09 13:55 -0400
              Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-09 18:56 -0400
  Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-09 08:47 -0400
    Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-10 19:19 +0000
      Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-10 19:42 -0400
        Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-11 00:13 -0700
          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-11 06:55 -0400
        Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-12 04:25 +0000
          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-12 08:23 -0400
          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-12 08:59 -0400
            Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-10-12 20:17 -0400
              Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-10-12 19:20 -0600
            Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-10-13 02:50 +0000
              Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-13 05:46 -0700
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-10-13 14:55 +0000
              Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-10-13 09:29 -0500
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-10-13 15:21 +0000
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-13 11:41 -0400
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-14 21:50 +0000
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-10-14 18:29 -0400
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-10-14 23:24 +0000
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-14 20:01 -0700
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-10-15 02:05 -0600
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor lal_truckee <lal_truckee@yahoo.com> - 2018-10-15 09:18 -0700
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-15 16:45 +0000
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2018-10-17 22:54 -0700
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-15 19:32 -0400
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) - 2018-10-16 07:13 +0000
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Magewolf <Magewolf@nc.rr.com> - 2018-10-16 14:13 -0400
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-16 23:53 +0000
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-10-16 21:31 -0400
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-10-16 22:43 -0600
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2018-10-17 05:03 +0000
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor frank.scrooby@gmail.com - 2018-10-16 23:44 -0700
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-17 06:54 -0400
              Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor peterwezeman@hotmail.com - 2018-10-13 13:21 -0700
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-10-13 21:48 +0000
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-10-13 16:01 -0600
        Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-12 21:42 +0000
          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-12 18:16 -0400
            Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-12 23:48 +0000
              Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-12 20:00 -0400
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-13 00:36 +0000
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-12 22:04 -0400
        Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-15 00:21 +0000
          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-15 19:31 -0400
            Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor -dsr- <dsr-usenet@randomstring.org> - 2018-10-18 12:48 -0400
              Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-19 04:33 +0000
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-19 16:29 +0000
              Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-19 18:12 -0400
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Magewolf <Magewolf@nc.rr.com> - 2018-10-20 09:45 -0400
          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-26 02:30 +0000
            Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-26 12:35 -0700
        Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-10-28 19:30 +0000
          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-28 23:03 +0000
          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-30 08:18 -0400
            Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-10-31 01:12 -0600
              Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-31 02:33 -0700
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-31 10:53 -0400
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2018-10-31 14:27 -0500
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-31 13:54 -0700
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2018-10-31 14:41 -0700
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> - 2018-11-01 14:40 +1300
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> - 2018-11-01 14:34 +1300
            Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-10-31 16:12 +0000
              Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-31 20:11 -0400
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-11-01 11:55 -0500
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-11-01 16:12 -0700
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-11-01 17:43 -0700
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-11-01 19:35 -0400
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2018-11-02 16:47 -0700
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-11-01 10:18 -0700
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-11-01 19:35 -0400
      Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-10 19:47 -0400
      Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-10-11 14:57 +0000
        Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-11 18:15 -0400
  Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2018-10-15 19:17 -0500
    Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-16 20:27 -0400
      Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2018-10-16 20:12 -0500

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