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Groups > rec.arts.sf.written > #501442
| From | Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | rec.arts.sf.written |
| Subject | Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor |
| Date | 2018-10-28 19:30 +0000 |
| Organization | Aioe.org NNTP Server |
| Message-ID | <87k1m13m3i.fsf@violet.siamics.net> (permalink) |
| References | <XnsA972AC6D8DF74Kdeuramagmailcom@85.214.115.223> <ppi81l$e2u$1@dont-email.me> <XnsA9777D4D060F1Kdeuramagmailcom@85.214.115.223> <ppm2oo$mdd$1@dont-email.me> |
>>>>> Sea Wasp (Ryk E Spoor) <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
>>>>> On 10/10/18 3:19 PM, Joe Bernstein wrote:
(Now that I've finished reading the book, I guess I can just as
well join the discussion.)
[...]
>> I was often miserably lonely, but this was a rich social life
>> compared to much that lay ahead. If we go on to when I was fourteen
>> (I was two grades ahead), it was even richer, because by then girls
>> who interested me were talking to me (though not dating me).
> This is not my experience of high school, nor that of most of the
> people I knew. I had very, very few friends. I did not socialize
> with anyone who did not share a number of interests with me. My
> richest social life lay much farther ahead. (I DID use the terror
> of homosexuality on occasion; threatening to kiss guys bothering me
> would get them to flee)
> Part of the irony of Holy Aura for me is that she finds her high
> school life ATTRACTIVE, when it was a period of life I wouldn't
> have gone back to if you paid me. OTOH, compared with Steve's
> life... that's a different choice.
I suppose I can understand that; I was having a nightmare every
now and then about going back to high school -- for perhaps a
decade since I've graduated from there.
[...]
>> In other words, I think the comparison the character makes is
>> rigged. So the book's advice to people like the earlier me boils
>> down to "be a rich girl instead". This is why I'd rather the
>> protagonist had decided on pretty much *any* other grounds.
> There's no advice in the book at all.
> The point of _Princess Holy Aura_ was to examine the typical Mahou
> Shoujo setup from a slightly different point of view, and examine the
> CHOICES made *with respect to that particular setup* -- for instance,
> the moral/ethical issues involved with selecting fourteen year old
> girls as your shocktroops in the war against Ultimate Evil.
> The original title of _Princess Holy Aura_ (and still the title of
> the series if/when I continue it) is The Ethical Magical Girl.
> ("Moral" might or might not be a better term, but "Ethical" flows
> much better).
At this point, I had to look into a dictionary [1]. Apparently
the Latin word ('moralis') the English 'moral' comes from was
"first used by Cicero, to translate Ancient Greek 'ethikos'
('moral'.)" (And 'ethical' is listed as a synonym there.)
So, while I somehow came to ascribe slightly different meanings
to these two ("moral" referring more to the instinctual, innate
understanding of good and bad, while "ethical" emphasizing the
societal convention, as well as the possibility of development),
it looks like this distinction may in fact be a feature of my
own personal version of English.
(And yes, 'ethical' flows better.)
[1] http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/moral
> The entire FOCUS of the novel is "Do the Right Thing".
> If you take anything in the book as being relevant to real life,
> it's fairly overt -- the position and treatment of young women in
> society, the difficulties of people in lower-class situations, etc.
Well, I'm going to ask what I find essentially the same question,
but from a different angle. Stephen Russ was, at one point, a
14-year-old geek himself. Through choices and (mis)fortune, he
ended up where we find them at the start of the novel: no parents,
friends scattered across the country, a not-quite-rewarding (so to
say) job.
Now that she's Holly Owen, 14, what, exactly, prevents her life
from taking a similar turn? I mean, other than the obvious
"standing for the world" business (which will likely keep their
company together for a while) -- and a tangible chance of the
nascent romance developing into a rock-solid relationship?
(I'm afraid that being a 30-odd loser myself doesn't help my
curiosity in the least. Not a 'bagel place' variety, but my
topmost regular income so far was around $350/month -- and
much lower last year -- so there's that.)
Other than that, my other issues (if they can indeed be called
that) with the novel are fairly generic. For example, what the
aliens eat for^W^W do when they /do not/ try to invade Earth?
With the successive incursions being separated by decades
(if not centuries), it seems that conquering Earth is hardly a
matter of survival. Moreover, unless I be mistaken, their goal
is to convert Earth to be more like their own plane of
existence. Now, Earth attracts them by being different; what
would they do once it becomes the same? What'd be their gain?
Then, the antagonists are depicted as exhibiting behavior not
unlike 'loyalty' and 'friendship.' Which is to say, being
perhaps a bit too humane? (It's something that, say, Lovecraft's
stories tend to lack, IMO.)
This is of course related to my deep conviction that no "life"
is possible, in the long term, without a degree of harmony and
beauty -- however alien, and even inimical, it may be to man.
(Which kind of prompts me to wonder if even a truce is indeed
impossible?)
>> Or to put it another way: if that comparison underlies Holly's
>> aversion to Stephen, then it represents a teenaged misjudgement.
>> People in their thirties are *supposed* to be uncomfortable if
>> unmarried. So the book's endorsing an alternative is, um, weird
>> at best.
> Why are they supposed to be uncomfortable? Why should ANYONE be
> uncomfortable as long as they're not hurting other people? For a
> long time I, and others I knew, was perfectly comfortable not being
> married. Marriage is a big step in responsibility and commitment.
> If you're not up for that, you'll be a LOT more comfortable
> NOT being married.
Let me put it this way. I'm not a psychology major, but so far
as I know, and per my own experience, human beings are more
often than not simply not "designed" to live without deeply
caring about some other individual -- and, preferably, be cared
about by them in turn.
A marriage is a possible societal arrangement for such care to
take place, although I'm not going to claim it's the only one.
[...]
> For PHA, did you read the accompanying short story "On-Site for the
> Apocalypse"? Because the main characters in that story will
> undoubtedly be significant characters in the sequel(s) of PHA.
> "On-Site" also gives you a different perspective on some of the
> events in the novel.
(Bookmarked for now.)
--
FSF associate member #7257
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Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-10 19:19 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-10 19:42 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-11 00:13 -0700
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-11 06:55 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-12 04:25 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-12 08:23 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-12 08:59 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-10-12 20:17 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-10-12 19:20 -0600
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-10-13 02:50 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-13 05:46 -0700
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-10-13 14:55 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-10-13 09:29 -0500
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-10-13 15:21 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-13 11:41 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-14 21:50 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-10-14 18:29 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-10-14 23:24 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-14 20:01 -0700
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-10-15 02:05 -0600
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor lal_truckee <lal_truckee@yahoo.com> - 2018-10-15 09:18 -0700
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-15 16:45 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2018-10-17 22:54 -0700
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-15 19:32 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) - 2018-10-16 07:13 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Magewolf <Magewolf@nc.rr.com> - 2018-10-16 14:13 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-16 23:53 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-10-16 21:31 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-10-16 22:43 -0600
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2018-10-17 05:03 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor frank.scrooby@gmail.com - 2018-10-16 23:44 -0700
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-17 06:54 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor peterwezeman@hotmail.com - 2018-10-13 13:21 -0700
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-10-13 21:48 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-10-13 16:01 -0600
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-12 21:42 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-12 18:16 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-12 23:48 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-12 20:00 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-13 00:36 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-12 22:04 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-15 00:21 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-15 19:31 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor -dsr- <dsr-usenet@randomstring.org> - 2018-10-18 12:48 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-19 04:33 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-19 16:29 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-19 18:12 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Magewolf <Magewolf@nc.rr.com> - 2018-10-20 09:45 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-26 02:30 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-26 12:35 -0700
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-10-28 19:30 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-28 23:03 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-30 08:18 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-10-31 01:12 -0600
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-31 02:33 -0700
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-31 10:53 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2018-10-31 14:27 -0500
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-31 13:54 -0700
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2018-10-31 14:41 -0700
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> - 2018-11-01 14:40 +1300
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> - 2018-11-01 14:34 +1300
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-10-31 16:12 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-31 20:11 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-11-01 11:55 -0500
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-11-01 16:12 -0700
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-11-01 17:43 -0700
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-11-01 19:35 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2018-11-02 16:47 -0700
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-11-01 10:18 -0700
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-11-01 19:35 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-10 19:47 -0400
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-10-11 14:57 +0000
Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-11 18:15 -0400
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