Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C

From	"Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C
Date	2014-04-19 22:12 -0400
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
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On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 17:15:27 -0400, Andrew Haley  
<andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
> Rod Pemberton <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> wrote:
>> On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 03:59:43 -0400, Andrew Haley
>> <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
>>> Rod Pemberton <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 18 Apr 2014 09:46:48 -0400, <cslarsen@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>> - Able to produce Forth bytecode that can be transmitted over the
>>>>> network and executed there
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure of any that can produce bytecode ...  That would
>>>> dramatically
>>>> limit the number of definable Forth words or dictionary size, although
>>>> Forths which use bytecode probably do exist.
>>>
>>> OK, I'll bite.  Why do you believe that?  Do you think that a bytecode
>>> Forth would be limited to 256 words?
>>
>> A byte by definition is exactly 8-bits.  Bytecode uses only one byte to
>> represent all instructions.  With a 1:1 mapping of instructions to  
>> integer
>> values, how can you have more than 256 words using only 8-bits per
>> instruction?
>
> With prefixes, obviously.  Only the core words need to be mapped to
> single bytes.  You can define as many Forth words as you like.
>
> For an example of variable length prefix coding, look at UTF-8.
>

As stated to Ms. Rather, that's not bytecode.  It's VLIW with the old
meaning of VLIW: "variable-length instruction word".

>>> And if you do believe that, why do you not believe that a bytecode
>>> Java would not be similarly limited to 256 methods?
>>
>> The Java Virtual Machine, the last time I checked which admittedly was
>> a few years ago, had exactly 206 bytecodes.
>
> That is not the question that I asked.

Of course, it's not.  You've presumed what I don't believe, and then
asked why I don't believe that.  Isn't that a "strawman"?
Set up fake/different argument.  Knock down.

> Why do you not believe that a bytecode Java would not be
> similarly limited to 256 methods?

I have no idea whether Java is or isn't limited to "256 methods", whatever
"methods" may mean here.  I tend to think of "methods" as something
object-oriented, like classes.  But, I'd assume that functions or  
procedures
could be built up from sequences of bytecodes, just like Forth.  I.e.,
if that's what you're discussing, then "methods" obviously aren't limiting.

>>> This is nonsense.  There is no incompatibility between MIT and GPL
>>> licences.
>>
>> No, it's not.  The GPL has more restrictive terms.  Mixing of
>> licenses, i.e., applying more than one license to one piece of code
>> results in "license pollution".
>
> What does "license pollution" even mean?

See the last half of the sentence of mine above, starting with "i.e.,".

> Of course the work would
> have to be licenced under the GPL and MIT licences, and any user would
> have to abide by both.

...

>> Open source licenses are not necessarily 100% compatible with each
>> other.
>
> No, they are not necessarily, but there is no conflict between MIT and
> GPL.  There are incompatible licences, but MIT and GPL are not
> incompatible.
>

You didn't even bother to read content at the link did you?

If you had, you'd know the two licenses you cited are not 100% compatible.
Although, they may be approved to work together by the FSF and the OSI.
The GPL doesn't allow changes to be released under a different license.
I.e., if the work falls under both licenses, most likely because
it's indeterminable as to which license applies to that portion of code,
i.e., license pollution, then the changes, if released as GPL'd, can't
also be released as MIT.  Therefore, legal problem.

According to that page, you also can't link with non-GPL, in which case,
you can't legally combine GPL and MIT code together in one file/block
and apply both licenses, which is done all the time in the FOSS community.

Also, the GPL has more restrictive terms.  You can't bind the MIT portion
to the more restrictive terms of the GPL portion.  That's simply not legal.
This basically reiterates what I said in the section above which you  
skipped.

>>>> Also, you might want to avoid Public Domain in that case since
>>>> technically it's not copyrighted and merging in copyrighted code
>>>> could be a legal complication.
>>>
>>> And the legal opinion on which ths is based is what, exactly?  I
>>> have certainly never heard it before.
>>
>> How can you apply a copyright to a work which cannot be copyrighted?
>
> There is absolutely nothing to stop you from taking a work that is in
> the public domain (a folk song, say) and releasing your own version
> with your own copyright.  It happens all the time.  The original song
> is not under copyright, your version is.  So it is with software.
>

I believe you're mistaken here, or exaggerating/promoting concepts.  It
has to be sufficiently different to constitute a new work in it's own
right.  U.S. copyright laws don't allow trivial changes to a work to be
copyright.  Generally, they require 70% or more to be different.  This
is to prevent theft of the work.  E.g., IIRC, one of the original cases
regarded a work that simply added the letter 'A' to the end of every
sentence in a book.

Rod Pemberton

Thread

Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C cslarsen@gmail.com - 2014-04-18 06:46 -0700
  Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2014-04-18 07:13 -0700
  Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2014-04-18 16:41 +0200
  Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2014-04-18 11:31 -0700
  Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-19 03:08 -0400
    Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-19 02:59 -0500
      Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-19 04:55 -0400
        Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-19 16:15 -0500
          Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-19 23:47 +0200
          Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-19 22:12 -0400
            Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-20 02:41 -0500
              Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-21 21:16 -0400
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-21 18:37 -0700
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-22 02:48 -0400
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-22 16:15 -0700
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-22 20:58 -0400
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-22 23:36 -0700
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-22 21:38 -1000
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-23 06:14 -0700
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-23 21:10 -0400
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-24 23:09 -0700
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-04-24 00:31 -0700
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-04-26 20:17 -0400
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-04-26 20:29 -0400
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-22 05:07 -0500
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-22 07:54 -0400
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-04-22 05:27 -0700
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-22 08:37 -0500
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-22 21:18 -0400
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-23 07:26 +0200
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-23 08:40 -0500
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-04-26 21:52 -0400
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-27 00:18 -0400
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-04-27 01:10 -0400
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-27 01:28 -0400
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-04-27 01:42 -0400
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-27 02:56 -0400
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-04-27 03:09 -0400
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-27 05:07 -0400
        Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C jkn_gg@nicorp.f9.co.uk - 2014-04-20 14:02 -0700
          Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-21 01:27 +0000
            Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-04-21 14:19 -0400
              Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-21 20:35 +0200
              Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C andraszsoter@gmail.com - 2014-04-21 11:54 -0700
              Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-21 20:25 -0400
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-21 18:26 -0700
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-22 03:29 -0400
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-22 16:19 -0700
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-22 20:23 -0400
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-22 23:16 -0700
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-27 01:43 -0400
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-27 11:33 +0100
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-28 01:02 -0400
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-04-28 01:27 -0700
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-27 22:56 -1000
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-28 05:42 -0400
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-04-28 04:24 -0700
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-28 13:43 +0100
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-29 08:06 -0400
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-29 19:22 +0100
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2014-05-25 16:44 -0400
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-29 07:54 -0400
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-04-29 06:06 -0700
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-29 19:07 +0100
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-04-28 04:17 -0700
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-29 08:20 -0400
                Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-04-29 06:09 -0700
          Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothaver.cqm> - 2014-04-21 20:39 -0400
    Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-18 22:24 -1000
      Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-19 05:02 -0400
  Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-19 01:43 -0700
  Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C andraszsoter@gmail.com - 2014-04-21 09:30 -0700
  Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 15:31 -0700
    Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-05-25 16:54 -1000
      Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-25 22:29 -0700
      Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 10:45 -0700
        Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-05-26 09:39 -1000
  Re: Recommendation of a Forth to embed in C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-25 16:30 -0700

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