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Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no

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On 5/2/2017 3:42 PM, Silvio wrote:
> On 05/02/2017 12:35 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 5/1/2017 5:17 PM, Silvio wrote:
>>> On 05/01/2017 10:09 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> On 5/1/2017 4:01 PM, Silvio wrote:
>>>>> They are quite right. Jigsaw is a very restricting and intrusive
>>>>> specification. This was mostly caused by too ambitious goals set for
>>>>> the
>>>>> new module system.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would have preferred a modules-as-an-option kind of system. Leave
>>>>> everything the same by default but allow the explicit construction of
>>>>> modules where needed/desired.
>>>>
>>>> Modules are not required.
>>>>
>>>> You can choose to use modules or you can chose not to use modules.
>>>> For your code.
>>>>
>>>> Oracle does the same for their code. And they chose modules.
>>>
>>> That is not sufficient. Besides greenfield toy applications larger
>>> existing Java projects need to start off without modules and then
>>> gradually adopt them. This is not an option with Java9.
>>
>> Why is that not an option?
>>
>> I don't think there is any limitation on how large an application
>> you can make without defining modules.
>
> You don't get it.

No. I don't.

>            If you have a large existing Java system that you are
> constantly improving and extending (which is very common in the standard
> software business) one might want to gradually introduce modules into
> the code-base while needing 100% backward compatibility for all existing
> code and configurations.

Yes.

And that should be possible.

Let us say that you have 200 packages with 2000 classes.

You build with Java 9 and it runs unchanged.

Then you take 1/10'th (10 packages with 200 classes) and convert
to a module. The rest of the application is unchanged - all
you need to change is the ref in the build and run to use the
new module.

Then you take the next 1/10'th and so on.

I don't think it is possible to create a module system that
is more backwards compatible than that.

> With Java9 even just getting existing applications running is a
> challenge already.

Really?

Surprisingly little has been said about that the year or more where the
EA has been available.

Where do you see those trouble stories? SO? LI?

>              And the least part of the problem is explicitly using
> sun.* or com.sun.* classes.

Everybody knew that was risky. Usage of those should not have passed
a code review.

>                             Not knowing which of your legacy libraries
> may fall apart and when that may happen is a much bigger problem.

Why should they fall apart?

Except by using SUN classes?

Arne

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Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no Chris Riesbeck <Chris.Riesbeck@gmail.com> - 2017-05-01 12:25 -0500
  Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2017-05-01 13:43 -0400
    Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2017-05-01 11:14 -0700
      Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2017-05-01 14:33 -0400
        Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2017-05-01 11:53 -0700
          Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2017-05-01 15:10 -0400
            Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2017-05-01 12:53 -0700
              Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2017-05-01 16:06 -0400
          Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2017-05-01 16:00 -0400
            Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2017-05-01 16:14 -0400
  Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2017-05-01 15:59 -0400
  Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2017-05-01 22:01 +0200
    Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2017-05-01 16:09 -0400
      Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2017-05-01 23:17 +0200
        Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2017-05-01 18:35 -0400
          Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2017-05-02 21:42 +0200
            Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2017-05-02 16:18 -0400
              Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2017-05-02 22:45 +0200
                Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2017-05-02 17:43 -0400
                Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2017-05-02 22:57 -0400
                Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no lewbloch@gmail.com - 2017-05-10 12:42 -0700
                Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2017-05-10 13:12 -0700
                Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2017-05-10 23:25 +0200
                Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2017-05-14 20:44 -0400
                Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2017-05-15 19:27 -0400
                Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no Sebastian <nowhere@nirvana.org> - 2017-05-16 22:39 +0200
                Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2017-05-16 20:48 -0400
                Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2017-07-21 19:45 -0400
              Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no v_borchert@despammed.com (Volker Borchert) - 2017-05-02 23:09 +0000
                Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2017-05-02 22:45 -0400
  Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no lewbloch@gmail.com - 2017-05-02 02:53 -0700
    Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2017-05-02 16:24 -0400
      Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2017-05-02 14:27 -0700
        Re: Jigsaw: RedHat and IBM say no Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2017-05-02 17:47 -0400

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